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Mosley the Cat
(@mosleythecat)
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Joined: 151 years ago
Posts: 874
Maryland
January 5, 2020 2:39 pm  

Be a Football Heretic

Discuss the article here.

Don't cross my path.


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CoachSteel
(@coachsteel)
Copper
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 36
OC
January 8, 2020 10:30 am  

Great article!  I have been going back and fourth on transitioning to a 2pt stance for my OL.  Last season I coached 10u and we definitely could have benefited from 2pt stance. But this upcoming season I will be coaching 12u. I’m struggling with when the kids are old enough to where they SHOULD be developing a proper 3pt stance.  If you have your kids in a 2pt stance what age (if any) did you or should you start to transition them to a 3??


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17282
North Carolina
High School
January 8, 2020 12:59 pm  
Posted by: @coachsteel

I have been going back and fourth on transitioning to a 2pt stance for my OL.  

--Why back and forth?

Last season I coached 10u and we definitely could have benefited from 2pt stance.

--Then why didn't you teach it?

But this upcoming season I will be coaching 12u. I’m struggling with when the kids are old enough to where they SHOULD be developing a proper 3pt stance.

--There is no age where they "SHOULD be developing a proper 3pt stance."  3-point is actually going by way of the dinosaur. Leave the teaching of the 3-point stance to coaches who need to teach it for their offense.   

If you have your kids in a 2pt stance what age (if any) did you or should you start to transition them to a 3??

--Transition?  You make it sound something like "puberty" or "coming of age."  If you want them in a 2-point, then teach it.  If you want the inside hand down, then teach it.  If you want your QB under Center, then teach it.  These aren't transitions or evolutions.  They're simply what you teach.   Teach them what you want.

--Dave

 

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachSteel
(@coachsteel)
Copper
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 36
OC
January 8, 2020 1:41 pm  

@coachdp

I simply was looking to hear from other coaches on their experiences with 2pt vs 3pt stance. I have had my kids in 3pt stance for the past few years and this year I am considering moving to 2pt.  Why is that so hard to understand? I’m sure that the majority of coaches on here that use 2 pt stance “transitioned” from the 3pt to 2pt at some point. I am at that point, and was just looking for advice and shared experiences from other coaches that did the same on the forum.  I don’t want to “teach them what I want” I want to teach them what will allow them to execute and be successful  on game days.  


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
Silver Moderator
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 680
Virginia
Middle School
Only / Head Coach
January 8, 2020 2:05 pm  
Posted by: @mosleythecat

Be a Football Heretic

Discuss the article here.

Passing game: I am starting to air it out in my old age! Sometimes 3 or 4 passes in a single game.

Snap: I have taught the Jock Sutherland snap for as long as I can remember. Now, thanks to this article, I learned it is called the "Wyatt snap". Heretical either way, I suppose.

Splits: Wide splits may be great for heretic coaches who are blessed with athletic linemen, but if all you got is fat freddies, you'll get killed with 3 foot splits.

Stance: I am going to teach my line to put a hand down, but if squatting works for your team, do that.

Specials Teams: I haven't practice or called a punt in a game in over three years. What I learned since is that I was stupid for punting before that. I don't remember if I ever practiced deep kickoffs, but if I did, it was way back in the early years. We onside kick all the time toward our bench. We have recovered 28 onside kicks in our last 33 games. Kick returns are basically eliminated. I have caught flack from a few parents over the years for our kicking game. Now I explain it in a preseason parent/coach meeting and don't get any flack although I'm sure some don't like it. I just want to give my kids the best chance to win.

Your fellow heretic,

Nathan


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Coyote
(@coyote)
Bronze
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 152
3rd - 5th
Coordinator
January 8, 2020 5:57 pm  

FWIW, we've punted twice in the last 5 yrs, and then only because we were playing a team from a different league at their field, and their "house rules" require punting on 4th down when winning by 24 pts or more.

My HC was fairly open to fully adopting a 4 down mentality, but his hesitation ended when I pointed out that most of the scores we had been giving up were 'big plays' not drives.  I also hit a nerve when I asked why he would put the ball in the hands of their best player, in space, with room to run.  That sold him, and from that time on, we've also on-sided our K.Off.   Well, sometimes kids (or their parents) have taken it on themselves to kick deep.   But we've called for the on-side every time.   FWIW, we find with 3rd and 4th graders the tendency is to out-kick the coverage.  

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17282
North Carolina
High School
January 8, 2020 8:50 pm  
Posted by: @coachsteel

I have had my kids in 3pt stance for the past few years and this year I am considering moving to 2pt.  Why is that so hard to understand?

--Because I don't know what there is to consider.  If it's what you want to incorporate in the offense, then do so.  If it isn't, you don't.  Are you looking for pros and cons to the stances?  You mentioned kids being old enough for the 3-point stance.  Are you coaching Pop Warner(?) because that's the only org I know of where the 2-point stance is mandatory for younger teams (Jr. PeeWee and younger) and optional for older  teams (PeeWee and older).  Other than Pop Warner, there is no age where a 2 or 3-point stance is mandatory for a certain age.

I’m sure that the majority of coaches on here that use 2 pt stance “transitioned” from the 3pt to 2pt at some point.

--I don't know what you mean by "transitioned."  Some years we have taught the 3-point stance and other years we've taught the 2-point.  There was no transition.  We've used both at the youth, middle and high school level.  They both work.  But anything you teach to your players, you should know why you are teaching it.  I'm not hearing why you do or don't want to.   I'm hearing something about "age."  Again, "age" makes no difference unless a particular stance is mandated by your org.

I don’t want to “teach them what I want” I want to teach them what will allow them to execute and be successful  on game days.  

--That isn't the same thing?  The only thing I want to teach them is what will make them successful.

--Dave

 

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17282
North Carolina
High School
January 8, 2020 9:04 pm  

From the article:

"This summer, I watched a varsity offensive line coach getting frustrated trying to get a good stance out of a third grader."

Why?  Stance has nothing to do with the block.  I'd rather spend my time on what matters.

--Dave

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17282
North Carolina
High School
January 8, 2020 9:10 pm  

From the article:

"For the other players, the stances were noticeably better at the end of the season, but on film, I didn’t see our guys gaining an advantage."

That's because focusing on stance has nothing to do with focusing on blocking.  Every year, the most common refrain from the ignorant or the obvious is, "You've got to block."  Coaches complain about how bad their blocking is, but what they repped MOST was stance and stance/get off against air.  On top of that, if/when the blocking was poor, the only corrective was to complain about it and then rep it again.  How's that working for ya?

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17282
North Carolina
High School
January 8, 2020 9:14 pm  

From the article:

"As far as low man wins, I believe that low man is simply lower. The following season, coaching a different team, I convinced the Head Coach to give up on three point stances and teach a solid two point. Get-off was vastly improved right off the bat."

That's a staple observation of my 2-point stance PowerPoint.  "Low man wins" is more of a cliched remark, than what actually gets taught.

--Dave

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17282
North Carolina
High School
January 8, 2020 9:20 pm  

From the article:

"This snap has been the source of a lot of ridicule over the years. Now that it’s a common technique in college and the NFL, it’s apparently okay to use it. I actually had a coach quit the team and take his son (our center) with him because my weird snap wasn’t preparing his 5th grade son for high school football."

lol.  We teach 3 different snaps, the common "twist," the dead snap and the end over end under Center.  They all serve their purpose.  But of course whether it works or not, is irrelevant.  It's whether it's used in the NFL and whether we are preparing non-high school players for high school football. 🙄 

--Dave

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17282
North Carolina
High School
January 8, 2020 9:26 pm  

As for the Mega Splits section, I'm re-examining my thoughts on that one.  There are an awful lot of dumb defensive coordinators out there and it's amazing what Mega Splits will do to them.  Of course, we use them at the high school and I believe that if we stretched our offensive line from the home sideline to the visitors' sideline, then the defense would do the same.  Defenses spend waaaay too much time worrying about how offenses line up, motion, and tempo and all that sort of thing instead of just executing their defensive plays.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17282
North Carolina
High School
January 8, 2020 9:36 pm  

As for kick-offs, I'm an advocate of onside at every level I've coached.  The great thing about onside is that the up-front guys on the receiving team usually have very little practice at receiving the ball.

As for punting, I am the Great Punting Advocate.  And yes, I like to punt to flip the field.  I love a good, instantaneous 30-yard gain.

"Field position is not often a factor in youth football. Very few teams move the ball with sustained drives. Youth offenses are big play”offenses. When they score from 20 yards out, they may as well score from 80 yards out."

Correct.  But I'd rather play the bulk of the quarter on your 20 than midfield.  Turnovers are also a factor in youth football.  I like having short fields for me and long fields for my opponent where turnovers and facing a superior opponent are concerned.  In 2006, we punted SIX times in the conference title game and won by 3 touchdowns.  Our opponent crossed the 50 once.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17282
North Carolina
High School
January 8, 2020 9:40 pm  

"Wait until at least 4th grade before developing a passing game."

 

Good grief...4th Grade?  My preference is to wait until at least the NFL.  Even the service academies have more interesting offenses than LSU, Washington State, Oklahoma....

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
Silver Moderator
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 680
Virginia
Middle School
Only / Head Coach
January 8, 2020 9:44 pm  
Posted by: @coachdp

"Wait until at least 4th grade before developing a passing game."

Good grief...4th Grade?  My preference is to wait until at least the NFL.  Even the service academies have more interesting offenses than LSU, Washington State, Oklahoma....

--Dave

Amen, Brother!  This is going in my Greatest DP Quotes file!


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