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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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I'd love to take credit but it's actually Pythagoras' theorem.

I give you full credit. You are the first to apply it to a youth football play !  😀

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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MHcoach
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One of the things I often cover in a clinic setting is the actual spacing of a football field & using the field to get proper alignments. At the HS level our QB's have stronger arms & can make the throws on the Fast Screens using the width of the field. Often this isn't the case in the Youth game. Smoke can be a 25 yd throw at the HS level, this simply will not work at the Youth level. So we would adjust it accordingly.

I realize not all youth fields have numbers, some don't even have hashes. We always checked our alignments on fields that had proper markings so when we played fields that didn't we could all know what the right spacing. This doesn't mean throwing into the boundary isn't a good thing. Sometimes we actually prefer to throw there. Again this is really all about understanding what your team can do.

I understand sometimes it is difficult for a Youth coach to look at the defense & understand where the ball should go. Learning about matching leverage to routes is something you actually have to do & practice. Getting the QB to recognize this is purely a product of practice.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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MHcoach
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G

Explain to Mr Mahonz where you heard it from first. I certainly wasn't the first, actually I know it was first used on the defensive side figuring out Zones.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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spidermac
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This is good stuff...we run the heck out of slant arrow and slant wheel....what I have to tell my QB constantly (at least on the wheel) is that if they give you the slant, throw it, if they take away the slant, then the wheel will be there.

I love the stick, I have an H that runs it extraordinarily well, when he doesn't cut it too short. X runs the fade, H the Stick (I have now told him 7 yards before he cuts, other wise he is on top of the F coming out of the backfield) and F running a speed out...the H or the F will be open, always.

We also like Sail, although its not as quick as the other stuff. X Fade, H Out and F speed out.

I read through GP's stuff about Mirror, and I think I like that, we are doing 7v7 right now, so I am going to play with that, Slant/Arrow, Slant/Wheel, Double Slants, both sets of twins doing the same thing on their side...up until now, "backside" are running fade and seams while "play side" are doing the slant/arrow or whatever.

I also think spacing is huge, otherwise, we will end up with the receivers too close to each other...

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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MHcoach
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Spider

If you are running Slant Arrow, then start running double Slants as well. This will put a lot of pressure on any Zone coverage you see.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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G

Explain to Mr Mahonz where you heard it from first. I certainly wasn't the first, actually I know it was first used on the defensive side figuring out Zones.

Joe

LOL....OK...you get some love as well.

The issue with this theory is that its hold true only that when the points are static.

Unfortunately there is NOTHING static about football.  8)

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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mahonz
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M

While bunch has it's place, & we do use it down on the Goal Line because of spacing. I think you are missing out when not being concerned with spacing, & the field. The whole concept of being a "Spread Team" is to vertically & horizontally stretch the field. It's the same with the large OLine splits. Studies show 75% of the time the ball will be on one hash or the other. If you aren't accounting for this then you are short changing your offense.

The age & relative arm strength also plays into the equation. All the pieces fit together, the Fast Screen game compliments the Quick game which compliments the Play Action game which into compliments the full drop game. Of course it is important to take into consideration the ability of the team you are coaching. Younger teams the full drop game may only be slow screens.

In dealing with coaches running similar things to what I teach, the biggest fault I often see is they leave one part or another out. Then they don't understand why things don't work. I think too many coaches only worry about what works against bad teams & have no concern for what to do against good teams. "Oh we don't need to run(insert play or series)" we are scoring like crazy. Then they play a good team & can't get them to honor anything. Our team didn't play well! No it was more you didn't coach well.

At the Youth level, perhaps a team will throw a quick concept 4 times a game. That is enough to force a defense to honor them. It doesn't even matter that they are all complete, the threat sometimes is enough. I have always taken great pleasure in forcing a defense to make adjustments. It could be a change in coverage or the front, either way I will make them uncomfortable doing what they don't want to do.

Joe

I was with you hands down on this for many years. Not anymore.

At this level....the field is really not the be all end all unless you are the king of sweeps. The UBSW guys that dont flip do just fine...which is what got me thinking about this philosophy initially. Although I will admit...play field and boundary for the Defense is still very important. 

I have come to the conclusion that spreading the field horizontally pre snap has less value than doing so post snap especially with 3 or more vertical threats close to the LOS. With post snap now you can both run and pass more efficiently. Better leverage regardless if you are coaching 9 year olds or 12 year olds.

Our production on Offense has improved post bunching...for run and pass.

Also what peaked my interest was the fact that the NFL seems to be the king of bunching....so I started recording and studying. My conclusion...you are asking a lot from your players if you spread and hardly ever bunch. Bunching busts the average rules of alignments for the D and actually adds a D gap so why only do it on the goal line?. Up to the OC to find the bust.

Its like a 2x2 that uses a TE or a tight slot...or both. Thats a tougher nut for the everyday youth Defense espceially what I call sneaky trips. TE / Tight Slot / Z receiver.  Most 2x2's use these nicely spaced SE's and Slots. The only advantage is ...well nothing really. Takes longer to run rubs meaning the QB is squeezing....G's Pythagoras' Theorem goes all to hell....receivers need to be able to stalk block...sweeps may or may not work all that well if the OT's cant reach....long motions are near impossible to time out every down when it comes to kids....just off the top of my head. 

My alternative take.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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MHcoach
(@mhcoach)
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M

True & a football is thrown in a parabolic path; however it does determine distance. Since most coaches measure arm strength in linear distance this applies.

The issue is the speed of the receiver is determined by age, this usually coordinates the speed the QB can deliver the ball. Now I understand all it all sounds like advanced math & perhaps some trigonometry is need, along with a little calculus. The numbers simply prove a point.

The reality is I can get most 10 y/o QBs to throw the fade at 17 yds. It does take practice & a willing student. This is why I use the Hitch to determine the width of the split VS the fade. The hitch is totally dependent on the arm strength more so then technique.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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MHcoach
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I was with you hands down on this for many years. Not anymore.

At this level....the field is really not the be all end all unless you are the king of sweeps. The UBSW guys that dont flip do just fine...which is what got me thinking about this philosophy initially. Although I will admit...play field and boundary for the Defense is still very important. 

I have come to the conclusion that spreading the field horizontally pre snap has less value than doing so post snap especially with 3 or more vertical threats close to the LOS. With post snap now you can both run and pass more efficiently. Better leverage regardless if you are coaching 9 year olds or 12 year olds.

Our production on Offense has improved post bunching...for run and pass.

Also what peaked my interest was the fact that the NFL seems to be the king of bunching....so I started recording and studying. My conclusion...you are asking a lot from your players if you spread and hardly ever bunch. Bunching busts the average rules of alignments for the D and actually adds a D gap so why only do it on the goal line?. Up to the OC to find the bust.

Its like a 2x2 that uses a TE or a tight slot...or both. Thats a tougher nut for the everyday youth Defense espceially what I call sneaky trips. TE / Tight Slot / Z receiver.  Most 2x2's use these nicely spaced SE's and Slots. The only advantage is ...well nothing really. Takes longer to run rubs meaning the QB is squeezing....G's Pythagoras' Theorem goes all to hell....receivers need to be able to stalk block...sweeps may or may not work all that well if the OT's cant reach....long motions are near impossible to time out every down when it comes to kids....just off the top of my head. 

My alternative take.

M

Bunch has it's advantages & it's disadvantages. In your study did you see field position & D&D when they used bunch?

A major disadvantage is that Fast Screen game is impossible out of bunch. It also brings more defenders into the box. Wide Splits & a Spread field allow more space for athletes to exploit. The other advantage is it clears up the coverage picture for our QB's this is especially important in the Youth Game.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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Dusty Ol Fart
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Personally I like the backside Hitch concept.  Just seems to me to be a real quick and easy read for the QB.  Now as Joe and GP so Geometrically point out.  Spacing is indeed a concern for the Noodle arm.  SO it may be that I get some of the kids together before Practices start and get a feel for Arm and the Ability to Catch the ball.  My QB lasted 2 games last year after a Radiologist re-read some xrays from a Fall before the season started it was determined he has a fractured elbow.  Time to find out if my iddy biddy speed demons can catch a football.  🙂

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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MHcoach
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S

Here's an easy to incorporate things into one play that's perfect for a hash mark play.

Hitch to #1 into the boundary, shorter throw easier for the noodle arm.

Trips to the field running Stick.

QB looks to the Hitch if the CB is deeper than 6 1/2 yds throw the Hitch if not read the Stick.

How do I pick an arbitrary number like 6 1/2? That's the depth the umpire is supposed to line up at, we teach our QB's to use him as a guide. The Stick Throw is almost the Hitch to boundary in distance. One concept multiple choices all easy throws.

You can give me a call & I can walk you through the finer details.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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M

Bunch has it's advantages & it's disadvantages. In your study did you see field position & D&D when they used bunch?

A major disadvantage is that Fast Screen game is impossible out of bunch. It also brings more defenders into the box. Wide Splits & a Spread field allow more space for athletes to exploit. The other advantage is it clears up the coverage picture for our QB's this is especially important in the Youth Game.

Joe

My study of the NFL gave me no info on when or where...but I could assume why. So I first applied that too my tiny brain and what that would mean to even tinier brains. For the running game...bunching stresses the Force Defenders and places any Contain in conflict. For passing its all burst type designs which can easily abuse Man which is most common at the youth levels. For zone its a healthy dose of screens and slants.

Anyhoo...the result was....the defense did dumb more times than not. We could out flank more easily for sure but the biggie is our blockers are now closer to their tacklers so a lessor athlete could have success. Stalking is one tough nut to teach when dealing with two left feet Timmy. Marry that with the wider splits and the Backs have more room to run.

I agree and nice wide formation gives the players on Offense a better picture. Certainly gives me a better picture and why its hard for me to wrap my brain around an Offense like the DW. This wide picture is so very true with the OLM using wide splits. My QB's are not making decisions though...they are following instructions.

I forgot what your definition of a fast screen is. The only screens I use are bubble / missile. Oh and thank you for all of your help on bubble. Huge improvements as you can see in that film clip. Gotta work on some cross blocking though...another reason I am enjoying this bunch experiment.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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MHcoach
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M

We use Bunch on the Goal line & in short yardage situations. We also use things like double HBacks, all of which are tools in our tool box. I have been a multiple formation guy for over 40 years. I think it's important to able to use them all.

If it is easier for you to read it is easier for you to give instructions. That doesn't mean abandon bunch just integrate it with wider formations.

Fast Screens are thrown on the LOS so the OLine can release downfield. Smoke, Bubble, Rocket, & Trouble are my Fast Screens. They are important to our offense to Spread the field horizontally. We played a 3-3 team a few years back that was much better than us. We threw Bubble 14 times in the game & ate them alive. Their HC is now their AD & still breaks my chops about how bad I made him look.

Now for us we will also combine Fast Screens to really torture the defense. You will see 1/2 our line running one direction & 1/2 running the other. I have seen Safeties trips over themselves because it kills their keys. The other is really get the OLine to run & hit.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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GP
 GP
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I already said I heard it first from my 7th grade math teacher, Mr. Prestininzi. I'm all for a healthy debate but I won't allow anyone to take the glory away from Mr. P!

"Motivation is simple. You eliminate those who are not motivated." - Lou Holtz


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MHcoach
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G

Actually when we had the conversation you mentioned him to me. I am glad he an impact on you.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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