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Graduating to the Talon  

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mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 22981
April 12, 2016 8:24 pm  

Decided to go with Texans Steel Talon for the rest of the Spring Season. Its a mesh of Clarks DC46 and Killer Bee.

It has always intrigued Coach Randy and myself and now Coach Gumby.

Did a massive install tonight....not too bad. Now we will drill it Thursday and Friday and see what happens in our game on Sunday.

We will keep everyone posted.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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BigD
 BigD
(@seaofghosts)
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 243
April 13, 2016 8:12 am  

Why the change M?  Just curious about it since its spring ball or see something in it that you don't get from the KB?

Unleash The Beasthttps://youtu.be/Dpfu4adYErc


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 22981
April 13, 2016 8:25 am  

Why the change M?  Just curious about it since its spring ball or see something in it that you don't get from the KB?

The KB has one Achilles Heal...play action to a quality TE in a Pro Formation....a staple play for many of the better teams we play this Fall.

The Talon mauls that TE on the LOS. So we shall see how it works when the W's really dont matter.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Michael
(@michael)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 12890
April 13, 2016 8:26 am  

Was there any actual graduating taking place, or did you just decide to change schools?

Michael can not receive PM's, emails or respond to Posts. He passed away in September 2018. To honor his contributions we are leaving his account active. R.I.P - Dumcoach Staff.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 22981
April 13, 2016 8:30 am  

Was there any actual graduating taking place, or did you just decide to change schools?

M

LOL....no the Talon is like graduating from HS to College. Its a rather difficult teach and can only be done with experienced players and coaches. Plus it helps if you have run both the KB and the DC46. Two GREAT D's on their own but supposedly much better when blended.

Plus its scout proof...an issue in the Fall League.

We shall see.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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joshv155
(@joshv155)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 3365
April 13, 2016 9:06 am  

I have put the wheels in motion to run the Talon this upcoming season vs. 21 and 22 personnel. That would be it so far. Maybe 32 as well but Texan said he used KB for that.

I am going to change the players that are moved from what Texan did in his manual. Think it will be an easier transition the way I have it set up. We struggled with the ISO and B gap counter runs. Our DT's are the weakest players on the field for our defense due to just running out of kids to put on the field for defense. I wanted to come up with a way to not have to sub players in for the 46 package and think I can make it work. My biggest concern is time. It takes awhile to get both defenses rolling. We will be merging three teams together including the kids I coached. I may need one year with this group before trying to run both D's. I should have 7 or 8 of my defensive starters back so we will see what happens.

Looking forward to hearing how it goes for you.

Passio Bellator


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Vince148
(@vince148)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 2337
April 13, 2016 1:42 pm  

I just joined the KB crew.

Interesting about the Talon though.

A couple of years ago, I was a JV defensive coordinator. The teams in our league were pretty much power-T and our defense started out as a 3-5-3. The T teams were killing us. I finally threw caution to the wind and changed our D to a bear front and covered the TEs for the very reason you speak and ran cover-2 behind it.
We lost the game, but it was the best our defense played all season.

I'm a 46 at heart, but I'll have to see what the KB brings for me.


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joshv155
(@joshv155)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 3365
April 13, 2016 2:27 pm  

I just joined the KB crew.

Interesting about the Talon though.

A couple of years ago, I was a JV defensive coordinator. The teams in our league were pretty much power-T and our defense started out as a 3-5-3. The T teams were killing us. I finally threw caution to the wind and changed our D to a bear front and covered the TEs for the very reason you speak and ran cover-2 behind it.
We lost the game, but it was the best our defense played all season.

I'm a 46 at heart, but I'll have to see what the KB brings for me.

The KB is great. I stressed myself out for 2 off seasons before I decided to go with it with a new team who had not run the 46. Interesting to see how they both are basically stopping the run game the same way. You will do well with it.

Passio Bellator


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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April 14, 2016 5:13 am  

I am going to change the players that are moved from what Texan did in his manual. Think it will be an easier transition the way I have it set up. We struggled with the ISO and B gap counter runs. Our DT's are the weakest players on the field for our defense due to just running out of kids to put on the field for defense.

Funny thing I learned on Tuesday. Mahonz and I decided that our weaker DTs cannot play NT when we shift to 46. We usually partner a weak KB DG with a bully boy, so that was easy. On Tuesday night, we really beefed up the o-line, including playing some monsters at TE to see how the stone went. Our weaker DTs were going against some of our best o-linemen. So we slanted them in over the OT with the specific instruction "touch the ground 6 inches behind the OT's foot with your hand, then play football". They took some convincing and several reps, but it started working. I had 2 of our best o-linemen basically falling on the weakest players on our team. Toward the end, I put them both in at DT. On the last play of practice, the left DT actually made it through, at least to his hips anyway. This forced the FB to step up and hit him on an ISO play. So I had 5 of the best blockers on the team caught up with my 2 weakest players. Considering the QB doing nothing after the hand off, that's 9 on 5 football.

This is the same effect as bear crawling them, but without the insult. I drill them with the tennis ball drill, but after they bat the tennis ball, I toss a football in some random direction and they are supposed to scoop and score. So the goal is that by the end of the season, these kids are firing off low and fast, hitting their o-lineman, then standing up and pursuing the football.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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joshv155
(@joshv155)
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April 14, 2016 9:34 am  

Funny thing I learned on Tuesday. Mahonz and I decided that our weaker DTs cannot play NT when we shift to 46. We usually partner a weak KB DG with a bully boy, so that was easy. On Tuesday night, we really beefed up the o-line, including playing some monsters at TE to see how the stone went. Our weaker DTs were going against some of our best o-linemen. So we slanted them in over the OT with the specific instruction "touch the ground 6 inches behind the OT's foot with your hand, then play football". They took some convincing and several reps, but it started working. I had 2 of our best o-linemen basically falling on the weakest players on our team. Toward the end, I put them both in at DT. On the last play of practice, the left DT actually made it through, at least to his hips anyway. This forced the FB to step up and hit him on an ISO play. So I had 5 of the best blockers on the team caught up with my 2 weakest players. Considering the QB doing nothing after the hand off, that's 9 on 5 football.

This is the same effect as bear crawling them, but without the insult. I drill them with the tennis ball drill, but after they bat the tennis ball, I toss a football in some random direction and they are supposed to scoop and score. So the goal is that by the end of the season, these kids are firing off low and fast, hitting their o-lineman, then standing up and pursuing the football.

We do something very similar. I would hold the tennis ball out about 1 foot off the ground behind the OG's butt (started as a player/coach holding a bag). They had to knock the tennis ball out of my hands with their outside arm, while they drove the bag, then I had a coach pointing left or right to a cone on the LOS about 6-7 yards out to each side. They would have to redirect and head down the LOS and around the cone.

I like the slapping the ground, takes one less coach to run the drill. And throwing the ball is good as well so its random. Our issue when the kids got good at their job was over penetration and the ball passing them. I want them at the LOS plugging the gaps and keeping 5 on 3. When done well we see the OT/OG split and standing there trying to push our DT's into the ground and sometimes going backwards getting in the way of their own players.

Seems like the DT position in both D's takes the longest to train. It is simple, but the kids have a tough time being consistent and not wanting to free lance.

Passio Bellator


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joshv155
(@joshv155)
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April 14, 2016 9:39 am  

So here is how we will move our players around. I am trying to keep it simple.

Texan has his OLB's as Sam/Will. I didn't like that at all. There was to much movement and players needing to know different responsibilities.

So for us:

Nick is our left DE
SAM is our right DE

Will is our right safety
Fred is our left safety

OLB's don't change...so they don't have to learn anything else.

Nick moves to NG, DT's slide out a gap and tilt.
SAM takes the TE, whichever side he is on.
Will drops down on the same side he is already on
Fred moves to Free

That is the simple version. We won't get to complicated with it this season. Get more advanced as we go.

Passio Bellator


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 4179
April 14, 2016 10:22 am  

We do something very similar. I would hold the tennis ball out about 1 foot off the ground behind the OG's butt (started as a player/coach holding a bag). They had to knock the tennis ball out of my hands with their outside arm, while they drove the bag, then I had a coach pointing left or right to a cone on the LOS about 6-7 yards out to each side. They would have to redirect and head down the LOS and around the cone.

I like the slapping the ground, takes one less coach to run the drill. And throwing the ball is good as well so its random. Our issue when the kids got good at their job was over penetration and the ball passing them. I want them at the LOS plugging the gaps and keeping 5 on 3. When done well we see the OT/OG split and standing there trying to push our DT's into the ground and sometimes going backwards getting in the way of their own players.

Seems like the DT position in both D's takes the longest to train. It is simple, but the kids have a tough time being consistent and not wanting to free lance.

I still use the ball, too, but mainly for the weaker kids. I can't think of a better way to take their mind off the fear of contact and instead concentrating on getting off fast. I use "slap the ground" when they are going live. If I could figure out a way to use a tennis ball in O vs D, I would do it. Maybe one of those extendable grabbers?

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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joshv155
(@joshv155)
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Posts: 3365
April 14, 2016 1:11 pm  

I still use the ball, too, but mainly for the weaker kids. I can't think of a better way to take their mind off the fear of contact and instead concentrating on getting off fast. I use "slap the ground" when they are going live. If I could figure out a way to use a tennis ball in O vs D, I would do it. Maybe one of those extendable grabbers?

That may work. We have them do 3 up/downs first time and rotate them out if they don't do it correctly in team, which we do very little of live. Stay in until you screw up. For every additional time you screw up we add 3 up/downs.

Passio Bellator


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Texan
(@ccleebelt)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1248
May 27, 2016 8:58 pm  

Been a stranger for a while and just came across this thread.  How'd it go?


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 4179
May 27, 2016 10:17 pm  

Been a stranger for a while and just came across this thread.  How'd it go?

Our last two games, we stayed in KB the whole game. The first one we expected it to be a blowout and it was. We stayed in KB due to personnel issues. I have a Mike who absolutely can't play in Talon (we call it "Steeler"). We were also missing a key safety, so it was much easier to stay in KB. The second game was going to be a battle. Tons of speed and no TE . . . ever. So we went KB and actually blitzed the Mike off the edge. Literally destroyed them and got us a defensive score in a 13-12 win.

So how'd it go? Very well, I'd say. Steeler completely neutralized the TE position. It's going to be a struggle to toggle in and out in the Fall. This Spring, we were 100% 2 platoon, so the defensive players got double the practice and double the reps. The biggest issue was confusion. If this is going to work, we must make it a MUCH simpler teach. The KB is all about teaching a kid his piece of the puzzle and not worry about "big picture". That doesn't work when you throw 2 defenses out there. They MUST know how the defense works as a whole so they can adjust against various formation, motions and actions.  We have to be able to teach this to each player in 3 sentences or less.

The biggest lesson was to stay out of their way. I had (have) an absolutely brutal defense. Tons of talent, aggression and attitude. Confusion made them tentative. I could have lined these kids up in anything and turned them loose and they'd still be the best defense I've ever coached.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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