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William Harrell
(@coachwwharrell)
Bronze
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 171
Head Football Coach
January 3, 2015 10:02 am  

Coaches,

How would you defend these formations? In the off-season and know I might have to deal with these looks when we start back in the Spring. Just looking for some ideas and thoughts. High School Varsity.

Personnel: Pocket QB, 2 tall WRs (6'4" and 6'0) and 2 SRs who are small and fast. RB is a speed guy, but not strong between the tackles.

O                                    OOXOO                                    O
                                                                                        O
                                            O                                        O
                                                O
STACK TRIPS

O                                    OOXOO                                    O
                O                                                  O        O
                                          O
EMPTY

O  O                                OXO                                  O  O
  O                                                                              O
                                          O 
                                          O
PODS PISTOL

Hephzibah...PRIDE!!!


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crissaitch
(@crissaitch)
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Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 273
January 4, 2015 6:04 am  

There's a post somewhere, I think in the DC46 thread, about defending stacked receivers. Loosely summarizing, stone the SE and have the DBs peel off to whichever receiver releases to their side.

Empty set, the KB zone coverage will take care of that, it was designed to stop spread.

Pods (I gotta say, I've never seen that one before), I think the key thing for your players to understand is that each pod has an ineligible receiver. I'm guessing the purpose of the formation is to spread you out and confuse you. Each ineligible can go no farther than 5yds on a pass play, so I really see no advantage outside of an extra blocker outside in the screen game. What type of plays do they run from this?


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morris
(@morris)
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Posts: 2694
January 4, 2015 1:42 pm  

They can't go 5 yds downfield on pass plays.


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crissaitch
(@crissaitch)
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Posts: 273
January 4, 2015 2:32 pm  

They can't go 5 yds downfield on pass plays.

Then I was mistaken. I thought high school rules allowed ineligibles 5 yds. My bad  🙂


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DumCoach
(@dumcoach)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 8620
January 4, 2015 4:13 pm  

Pods (I gotta say, I've never seen that one before), I think the key thing for your players to understand is that each pod has an ineligible receiver. I'm guessing the purpose of the formation is to spread you out and confuse you. Each ineligible can go no farther than 5yds on a pass play, so I really see no advantage outside of an extra blocker outside in the screen game. What type of plays do they run from this?

Pods are usually run at the goal line or short yardage situation hoping to catch the "D" in a 6-5 front.  The QB will count to make sure there are three defenders over each pod or throw screen to the one that doesn't.  If both pods have three, the QB is going to run, about one yard outside the OG's, usually with option, or put RB in motion.  If the "D" is in 6-5, then four of the five DB's are out on the pods, leaving the fifth with two to cover.

Here is base Killer Bee versus Pods:

    C                                                                          C
              FS                                                    SS
                                          M
  B                          E      T    T    E                              B
O  O                                OXO                                  O  O
  O                                                                              O
                                          O 
                                          O

First time, the QB would count three outside and run option and probably for a loss as the DE's are unexpected (Although no one knows who has QB and who has pitch.).

Allowed to prepare, the offense would throw the screen and have both pod players in front block B, allowing the screen receiver to gain 1-2 yards before being tackled.  If he crosses the goal line:  TD.

If we bring a safety up close and inside, they still throw the screen and let SE block B and OT block safety and the screen receiver runs outside and scores before corner can get to him.

The prepared screen is killed by this:

    C                                                                          C
             
  S                                    M                                      S
  B                          E      T    T    E                              B
O  O                                OXO                                  O  O
  O                                                                              O
                                          O 
                                          O

If you 3 point OLB to split the two blockers, it flushes the screen receiver into the waiting arms of S.  It also cleans up S' view of the receiver (He could run slant.). 

Or you can just have the B and E change places:

  C    S                              M                                S      C
  E                          B      T    T    B                                E
O  O                                OXO                                  O  O
  O                                                                              O
                                          O 
                                          O

When the DE's flex and tilt at the OT's to keep OT off safety and corner goes to cloud coverage, watch the pods heads explode.  Option is covered with no confusion.   

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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DumCoach
(@dumcoach)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 8620
January 4, 2015 5:27 pm  

Coaches,

How would you defend these formations? In the off-season and know I might have to deal with these looks when we start back in the Spring. Just looking for some ideas and thoughts. High School Varsity.

Personnel: Pocket QB, 2 tall WRs (6'4" and 6'0) and 2 SRs who are small and fast. RB is a speed guy, but not strong between the tackles.

      C                                                                              C
                                            M
                                B  E  T  T  E                                 
O                                    OOXOO                                    O
                                                                                        O
                                            O                                        O
                                                O
STACK TRIPS

This is really not a Killer Bee situation.  The offense is extremely limited on what it can do but what it can it can do well (Slants and screens). Since there is no set rule for this I can only offer suggestions.

Start with the above.  Next, you may want to do this:

                                                                                      C
      C                                                                             
                                              M
                                B  E  T  T  E                                B                               
O                                    OOXOO                                    O
                                                                                        O
                                            O                                        O
                                                O

If you do this, you have to expect all three receivers to run slant inside:

                                                                                C2
                                                                        S       
      C                                                    S                                       
                                              M
                                B  E  T  T  E                                  B2                             
O                                    OOXOO                                    O
                                                                                        O
                                            O                                        O
                                                O

They can't run three deep because they'd be so close together the corner could cover all three and they're going to have trouble pass blocking B1 that long without using the back.  If they use the back to block B1, B1 can stay on the back for screen while M delays blitzes "B" gap once he sees the back pass block.  So whatever they're going to run, they have 3 seconds to do it in (And, if that back pass blocks to strong side, it's a delay release to him.).

So, to me, it looks like they throw quick slants and screens.This formation does not leave the offense with much deep or route opportunity except throw screen to the #3 Stack Receiver and run outside behind the other two.  Other than that, they probably release one out and slant two in or even all three in.  That's probably the entire offense.   

The other alternative is to not move B2 out at all and cover three with three.

                                                                               
                                                                               
      C                                                                      S1          C2                           
                                              M              B2
                                B  E  T  T  E                                  S                             
O                                    OOXOO                                    O
                                                                                        O
                                            O                                        O
                                                O

S1 is as far inside the stack as the #3 stack receiver is off the LOS.  So, if #3 is at 4 yards, S1 is 4 yards inside him (S1 would vary his depth from 2-5 yards).  I put B2 in the flight pattern against the slants.  So throwing the outside screen is all they've got with no blocker on S1.  Pretty much on any outside play, S1 has #3. 

Your question of how to cover this formation with Killer Bee is probably the wrong way to look at it.  I would post this formation in the General Defense section and ask how others would defend it.  Somebody will probably post something that stops what they run.  Now just move your Killer Bee into that look and you're done.  Since Killer Bee has no rules for this, simply invent your own that creates maximum mayhem and damage.  Again, they seem to be really limited. 

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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William Harrell
(@coachwwharrell)
Bronze
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 171
Head Football Coach
January 10, 2015 11:31 am  

Coaches thanks for your responses. Each of these formations their offense runs is like a series to itself; they run about 5-6 plays out of each that most often have the same play action.

As to the numbers, they will attack with screens even when the numbers are even; their belief is that it creates a one-on-one tackling situation. In this case, I love for them to be forced to run their QB; he's a big immobile kid that would rather throw from the pocket than be forced to run the ball.

Hephzibah...PRIDE!!!


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DumCoach
(@dumcoach)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 8620
January 10, 2015 3:37 pm  

Coaches thanks for your responses. Each of these formations their offense runs is like a series to itself; they run about 5-6 plays out of each that most often have the same play action.

As to the numbers, they will attack with screens even when the numbers are even; their belief is that it creates a one-on-one tackling situation.

And it does.  So long as even one of the three defenders plays deep, they will throw the screen.  It's guaranteed gain.

In this case, I love for them to be forced to run their QB; he's a big immobile kid that would rather throw from the pocket than be forced to run the ball.

Killer Bee base rules do allow the DE to go out with the split out OT and I think it works very well.  This was how I drew it up:

  C    S                              M                                S      C
  E                          B      T    T    B                                E
O  O                                OXO                                  O  O
  O                                                                              O
                                          O 
                                          O

Our DL (E) takes out their OT leaving two DB's to take their two eligible receivers and they have the problem of how they're going to block it. 

The way I lined up C and S was simply best guess (not knowing their plays).  One play I failed to consider is a double pass where the screen slot receiver throws a double pass to the SE.  Best way to cover that would be to post the SE from outside in, which denies a free release.  So I'll amend the defensive formation above to this:

            S                              M                                S     
C  E                          B      T    T    B                                E  C
  O  O                                OXO                                  O  O
    O                                                                              O
                                            O 
                                            O 

Again, simplicity:  If they want to run option, M has QB and OLB has pitch.  If they throw screen to the back, OLB has him.  If they throw screen to the pods, only the outside SE is eligible for a a second pass and he's getting pasted by the corner while DE is in his way.  If the screen receiver wants to run inside, DE (E) is keeping OT off S and, if he wants to run outside, corner is on outside shoulder of SE with oposite safety coming to help. 

I don't what plays they run out of pods but I'm thinking I just killed every one of them.

I would still ask if I were you how others defend pods (and Triple Stack) because there may be a better way to play C and S.  I would like to hear what you come up with.  🙂

So how'd I do against pods?  😀

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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angalton
(@angalton)
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Joined: 8 years ago
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January 13, 2015 5:54 am  

Would you bring safety up to cut off screen. Bring OLB's to force throw. Corner head up on deepest received and backed off a couple yards and put DE outside and flexed  on eligible received.

                                                 
                                                    C
                                        S.            E
                                                O.  O
                                                  O

Or switch c and s.

The greatest accomplishment is not in never failing, but in rising again after you fail.


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DumCoach
(@dumcoach)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 8620
January 13, 2015 9:22 am  

Would you bring safety up to cut off screen. Bring OLB's to force throw. Corner head up on deepest received and backed off a couple yards and put DE outside and flexed  on eligible received.

                                                 
                                                    C
                                        S.            E
                                                O.  O
                                                  O

Or switch c and s.

The offense forces a "one on one" tackle on the pods screen receiver.  I want that to be S (Less chance of a missed tackle.).  I'm not trying to intercept the screen (The OT has only job on the screen - block anyone inside him - or S in my alignment.).  Remember!  OT can legally go down field to block S on screen.  So I had DE hit the OT to keep him off S (DE is a good match up for that hit.  DE gives a three step drive, outside arm free, ready to come off and go for the screen receiver (The play might be a double pass to the End - But that End won't get out there very fast with the corner hitting him from outside in.  So DE might get the sack or at least, a hurried throw.).    Meanwhile my unblocked S just stands and waits to see which way receiver goes.  The play might go 2 yards.  Let them throw it four times in a row and see what happens. 

Where it's a good play is 4th and 1 and 3rd and 2.  But first they have to get to 4th and 1 or 3rd and 2 to use it and using pods is not going to get them to 4th and 1 or 3rd and 2.  What you have to stop is the play that gets them to 4th and 1 or 3rd and 2.  Stop that one and you stop this one,  That's how you defend this play - Eliminate the situation it's used in.

I was hoping to hear from William Harrell.  He knows their plays.  I don't.

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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William Harrell
(@coachwwharrell)
Bronze
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 171
Head Football Coach
January 14, 2015 6:12 pm  

And it does.  So long as even one of the three defenders plays deep, they will throw the screen.  It's guaranteed gain.

Killer Bee base rules do allow the DE to go out with the split out OT and I think it works very well.  This was how I drew it up:

  C    S                              M                                S      C
  E                          B      T    T    B                                E
O  O                                OXO                                  O  O
  O                                                                              O
                                          O 
                                          O

Our DL (E) takes out their OT leaving two DB's to take their two eligible receivers and they have the problem of how they're going to block it. 

The way I lined up C and S was simply best guess (not knowing their plays).  One play I failed to consider is a double pass where the screen slot receiver throws a double pass to the SE.  Best way to cover that would be to post the SE from outside in, which denies a free release.  So I'll amend the defensive formation above to this:

            S                              M                                S     
C  E                          B      T    T    B                                E  C
  O  O                                OXO                                  O  O
    O                                                                              O
                                            O 
                                            O 

Again, simplicity:  If they want to run option, M has QB and OLB has pitch.  If they throw screen to the back, OLB has him.  If they throw screen to the pods, only the outside SE is eligible for a a second pass and he's getting pasted by the corner while DE is in his way.  If the screen receiver wants to run inside, DE (E) is keeping OT off S and, if he wants to run outside, corner is on outside shoulder of SE with oposite safety coming to help. 

I don't what plays they run out of pods but I'm thinking I just killed every one of them.

I would still ask if I were you how others defend pods (and Triple Stack) because there may be a better way to play C and S.  I would like to hear what you come up with.  🙂

So how'd I do against pods?  😀

Coach, these are great solutions. I can't come up with anything else. You took away or limited all the options they actually use. Will see how it works in April/May.

Hephzibah...PRIDE!!!


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CoachVoodoo
(@coachvoodoo)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 19
January 15, 2015 4:47 pm  

I am confused on those stacks - I thought the offenses had to have 7 players on the line of scrimmage.  I've seen a few different stacks in our league, but not like a lot of the ones shown here.


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DumCoach
(@dumcoach)
Diamond
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 8620
January 16, 2015 9:01 am  

I am confused on those stacks - I thought the offenses had to have 7 players on the line of scrimmage.  I've seen a few different stacks in our league, but not like a lot of the ones shown here.

There are seven on the LOS. 

Yes.  It is unusual looking but it's just "Triple I".

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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