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Wing with a split end problems.


COACHDT
(@hawk2018)
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We faced a team that used a Wing with a Split end.  The wing lined up off the tackle and the split end was about 15 yards wide.  The split end ran our corner off and they hit the wing in the flat.  This put the corner having to cover deep and shallow.  The safety could not get to the Split end in time and the corner couldnt cover the flat in time.  Our adjustment was to have the OLB blow up the wing.  This worked well but left us vulnerable on the sweep with no ricochet or corner to help contain.  This put us a step behind on the kill shot, and mike and back side safety barely got there since the rb didnt have to bounce deeper.  How do you guys handle a wing with a split end?


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rpatric
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Try having the OLB drop into the flat. I think Clark called it Robber coverage


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @hawk2018

This worked well but left us vulnerable on the sweep with no ricochet or corner to help contain. 

Various approaches we have used with different teams and age groups over the years:

Generally:

We tilt our CB towards the QB so that our CB has eyes on their QB.  Our default is to have our CB take 3 backpedal steps if we're playing press coverage.  If we're playing loose coverage, our CB will sit and wait 5-yards off (so that no backpedal steps are needed), to determine what the play is.  If our CB lines up on a receiver, his footwork has essentially mirrored their QB's footwork.  That is, if their QB takes a 3-step drop (this says PASS), our CB will drop (the aforementioned) 3 steps (the 3 back pedal steps give us time to determine whether it's pass or run) and then go with their Split End.  If their QB turns to hand-off or keep, after our CB's 3-step drop, our CB comes up for support contain.  So if it's a run, our CB approaches to contain after his 3rd back step.  Our CB still has plenty of time to make this adjustment for a Sweep because he's so far away from the snap of the ball.

Many times, our CB will "split the difference" between their Split End and Wing.  In this way, our CB is in a better position for sweep contain and it cuts off the passing lane to their Split End.  He's also in the route for the flat pass to their Wing.  This defensive alignment completely screws up what your opponent is trying to do.   If their QB throws to the Split End, he'll have to throw over the top of our CB, which means he'll have to arc the pass.  This gives us more time for our Safety to make the pic, or be in position for an immediate tackle.  Their receiver can't look back at the ball and at our Safety at the same time.  He will have to make a decision: catch the ball, or protect myself.  He cannot do both.  

Sometimes, our CB will line up on the outside shoulder of the Split End.  By being tilted, our CB can see their QB and Split End at the same time.  On outside press coverage, he can see the receiver & QB in his "line of responsibility" for sweep contain.  He's still able to play sweep contain because of his tilt and outside/in approach.  Our CB will not be run-off on a running play because that is diagnosed immediately; nor will we engage the receiver and get blocked.  If it's a pass, see note in red, below.

We have had also had our CB take their Wing and given our Safety or Rover the over top responsibility of the Split End.  

We have had our OLB cover their Wing while our ILB or Rover have contain responsibility.  We can have an ILB have contain responsibility because of our umbrella (wider, outside/in) approach.  We have also had our ILB/Rover have Wing responsibility and left the OLB for contain.

These situations are usually handled by simply having the backside LB (LB to the back of a RH or LH QB) contain rush from outside.  This approach is the same speed as a blitz, except in blitz we are targeting their QB.  In our conventional rush contain, we are meeting their ball-carrier in the backfield.  Because our OLB lines up 1-yard outride of their EMLOS, he can't be reached or blocked unless their OT/TE is just as good as our OLB. And even then, we are not engaging him (Invisible Offense).  If their QB rolls to the pass side to evade our backside OLB, our frontside player (who has not been assigned their Wing or Split End) will be able to reach their QB.  

Our focus is to contain their short game because we want to keep their playmakers in front of us.  A youth offense's long game is what we're hoping for.  While many youth QBs have the arm to throw the ball 40 yards or so, they don't have the arm strength to get it there fast enough.  This gives us more than enough time to break on the ball or make the tackle.  If we are in a trail position to the receiver, we do not teach our DB to look back at the football.  Our DB knows the football is coming when the receiver put their hands out.  Our DBs will put their "arm inside the circle" (receiver's make a circle with their arms and the football in any 2-handed catch) and "pop the balloon" (pull their arm back out of the circle, taking the receiver's arm with him).  Our DBs practice this with me being the receiver.

These are various approaches we've used over the years.  Its success relies on 3 things: 1) knowing your opponent's strength & what they want to do; 2) having your players playing the right positions; 3) having your personnel placed in the right zones defensively.  We put a premium on #3.  And regarding #3, many teams will put their best defensive player at MLB.  This goes completely against our philosophy and why I think so many youth defenses fail:  Why have your best player in the middle of the field, when so few offenses run successfully up the middle?  The MLB will spend the bulk of the game running from sideline to sideline, rarely in a position to make the play because he's almost always chasing.  We are at our strongest on the outside and this is where most play-makers want to be, whether they are running or passing to get there.  Outside defenders are on an island, and as such need to be elite to make the open-field tackle or coverage.  Inside defenders are surrounded by help, so we want to funnel our opponent's offense to the inside.  The offenses we've had the most trouble with were Double Wing or Single Wing teams.

There may be an idea in here that helps.  And if you need more detail, or what I've written makes absolutely no sense, let me know and I'll do my best to clarify.

--Dave

 

 

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

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COACHDT
(@hawk2018)
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 It just so happens the team we play this week does the same thing.  Our safety covers the 2nd eligible receiver which would be the wing. He is also keying him.  So this week we will have the safety and the corner playing man to man on the wing/split end. OLB is still charging nearest deepest to force the sweep deeper. Since the safety is already reading/keying the wing he'll basically just be doing a kill shot on the flat pass for a no gain or short gain, or kill shot on the sweep if he blocks.   I think just repping that with him will cover it, which we didnt have time to in the game.  This will keep everyones job the same, they just need to see the different looks.


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32wedge
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Posted by: @hawk2018

We faced a team that used a Wing with a Split end.  The wing lined up off the tackle and the split end was about 15 yards wide.  The split end ran our corner off and they hit the wing in the flat.  This put the corner having to cover deep and shallow.  The safety could not get to the Split end in time and the corner couldnt cover the flat in time.  Our adjustment was to have the OLB blow up the wing.  This worked well but left us vulnerable on the sweep with no ricochet or corner to help contain.  This put us a step behind on the kill shot, and mike and back side safety barely got there since the rb didnt have to bounce deeper.  How do you guys handle a wing with a split end?

According to the Killer Bee manual, when the split end crosses through the CB's zone (the deep outside route), the CB has that split end.  Also in the manual, the OLB covers the flats zone when #2 (the wing back) releases outside (the flats route).  

 

It seems to me that you might be playing the OLB as a DE with no pass coverage responsibility.  That's not how the defense is designed.  If two or more receivers outside, line up on #2 and play zone.  If two or more receivers are inside of your normal alignment (3 yards outside end man on line), the OLB is in rush mode.  BUT, if the OLB has 1 receiver outside and 1 receiver inside, he has to key that #2 receiver.  If #2 blocks down or pass releases inside of OLB , rush.  If #2 pass releases inside of OLB, he should be straight up field into the Safety's zone will cover him from then on.  If #2 releases outside, drop to flats zone coverage.  

 

 

 


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COACHDT
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@32wedge

Its a double wing team that has a formation adjustment with a split end.  So we have worked hard to get our OLB to get behind the TE against the double wing teams. But the DT will now be there since there is no TE.  The OLB's have been trained to cover any back(excluding wings) that comes out of the backfield  on pass, but noone has been trained yet to cover that wing in the flat. You are right, I missed the part in the manual that said "Before going on to Zone Mode, let’s be sure and understand the OLB is still pass covering “nearest” back when in Rush Mode", which is the wing. I wasn't thinking of the wing as a back.   I should have read the manual an 11th time....lol.

 


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32wedge
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@hawk2018

 

For me, the Killer Bee was the best pass coverage defense I ever ran and Nate Albaugh's Simplest 3-5-3 was the best all around run defense I have ran.  The Killer Bee required a lot of thinking and the 7 man front got beat too often inside.  The Simplest 3-5-3 is a full time cover 3 and we gave up too many big passing plays for my taste.  Then I found the Trap 5-3 which showed me the adjustments needed to combine some of the concepts from both defenses (the 8 man front of the 3-5-3 and the quarters match zone coverage of the Killer Bee).  I am calling my new defense the 35 Trap.  I have not put it on grass yet but will in Febuary when our COVID delayed season starts. 

 

Below is a link to a manual I have started for my defense.  It is missing a lot but you can get an ideal of where I am going with it.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sqio_3lxrUUIdI9Qpz3IG7EtgZPEHVxC/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 


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soul strife
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@32wedge

 

That's very interesting.  Man on one side and zone on the other.  Keep us updated as you go. Or, if you need to pick our brains post up.  

 


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rpatric
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@32wedge

I love that Killer Bee Cover 4! It was by far the best feature of the defense for us when we ran it. We had more interceptions that completions against us!


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32wedge
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@rpatric

We did too!  We had at least a half dozen INTs that season. 

 


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terrypjohnson
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Posted by: @32wedge

@rpatric

We did too!  We had at least a half dozen INTs that season. 

 

My 8U team faced five passes... two are pick sixes, two were incomplete, and one was a two point-conversion! Can't say enough good stuff about the the KB!!

 

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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COACHDT
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We had 3 interceptions in our last game. One was a pick 6 called back for block in the back.  Their only score was on a pass where our corner didnt play pass first. When the kids do their job it looks great. When they get selfish it looks bad.  This year we have enough kids to take anyone off the field during the game and coach them up.  Last year we had around 15(depending on injuries and vacations).  We had to watch most train wrecks and try to coach from the sideline.  It works much better to have a back up olb(or any position) next to me while we are watching the one in the game.  If we see a mistake we sub in and coach them up.


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mpwcoachsmith
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When we ran KB, one of the daily drills I created for OLBs (or maybe got from clark) was to have the OLB respond to a WB doing:

1.  WB Reverse motion--OLB yells reverse!

2.  WB blocking OLB--OLB hits him, pushes him back towards C if possible, keeps outside arm free

3.  WB brush blocking OLB--OLB hits him to disrupt timing

4.  If WB avoids OLB--OLB drop steps and covers flat, eyes on QB

I might be missing another scenario that I can't remember at the moment.


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DumCoach
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Posted by: @hawk2018

We faced a team that used a Wing with a Split end.  The wing lined up off the tackle and the split end was about 15 yards wide.  The split end ran our corner off and they hit the wing in the flat.  This put the corner having to cover deep and shallow.  The safety could not get to the Split end in time and the corner couldnt cover the flat in time.  Our adjustment was to have the OLB blow up the wing.  This worked well but left us vulnerable on the sweep with no ricochet or corner to help contain.  This put us a step behind on the kill shot, and mike and back side safety barely got there since the rb didnt have to bounce deeper.  How do you guys handle a wing with a split end?

I have read this post several times and I don't understand this part:

 

The split end ran our corner off and they hit the wing in the flat.  This put the corner having to cover deep and shallow.  The safety could not get to the Split end in time and the corner couldnt cover the flat in time.

The corner should turn and run deep with the SE, leaving the safety on the WB.  Why would a safety try and cover an SE 15 yards outside him?  

I'm guessing the SE ran a "post", the Corner called "In" and then the corner tried to cover the WB in the flats.  That's the only way I see this play working.  If so, here's how I view it.  Against a Double Wing team I want the OLB getting in to defend "Toss" first.  That is their bread and butter play.  Yes.  There's no TE but that should put the WB on the DE and the OLB on the FB.  If the WB doesn't block down on the DE and outside releases, the OLB should see that and he does have flat coverage.  But let's assume he takes the FB instead.

First, let's discuss that 15 yard split:

Except for a “Trips” formation, an SE in a 15 yard split is there to either "formation" the defense and not to actually catch a pass (unless they've lined up an outstanding receiver at the spot) as is commonly used by DW teams or to find a place for a "wasted player" to get in his required plays who can't catch or block.  When a DW uses an SE that’s a sign of Jack Gregory thinking and any student of Gregory’s will be familiar with the “pick” pass.  I will cover that below.

A Killer Bee corner can view a 15 yard split between the WB and the SE two different ways.  There’s so much distance between himself and the near safety that he can consider himself alone on the SE (“He alone, me alone”) and play him in 5x2 Man. This has been mentioned by CoachDT.   

He can also view the wide split where he is being “walked off” by the SE where the SE is trying to take him out of the play.  A 10 yard split can be normal at the youth level but 15 is not.   A corner being “walked off” can read it as “He too far, me too far” which means the corner is covering a receiver pretty much out of the QB’s throwing range (Depending upon age group).  Rather than go out that far with him, the corner can move to 5x4.  This was described by Coach Potter.

Given this team was Double Wing, the odds are really high the WB is the receiver and not the SE.  The best way to get the WB open is to cross the WB and SE with the SE running slant and the WB running a flare to the flats.  As the corner in Man chases the SE, the SE picks (blocks) the safety to keep him off the WB.  I’m guessing this is what happened or what could happen.  Jack knows his stuff.

From 5x4 the corner can “bump” the SE down inside to keep him off the Safety.  This should position both the corner and the safety to cover the WB. 

The corner’s “bump” is done fast and hard to bust up the SE’s path. 

You can also put the corner on inside shade Bump and Run and it is pretty much guaranteed to destroy any play involving the SE.  IMO, the problem is the 15 yards using Zone.  It's too far the corner to cover the WB.  You have to go Man.

 

This post was modified 6 months ago 2 times by DumCoach

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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COACHDT
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@dumcoach

The zone coverage was the problem at 15 yards.  It was too far for the corner to cover the wing (#2 ER) on a crossing pattern.  The OLB had not been trained to look for a wing releasing in the flats, so he stayed in Rush mode.  He was trained for any back releasing to the flats but not the wing.  So the corner was always too far way to cover the outside release of the wing(#2 ER).  

 


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