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Coaching up the devastating criss cross counter.....  

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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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February 20, 2019 6:35 am  

I see what coaches DP & Calande are saying.  But from a normal defense, wouldn't it be easier to sit on any kind of counter than it would be to stop a power play?

Only on a traditional Counter, where you lose the motioning Back as a blocker.  If he's motioning away from the play for the majority of the time, then he's not a help.  However, if you are running the Yo-Yo Counter, the motioning Back is actually the ball-carrier and there is no wasted personnel that runs away from the play.  The Yo-Yo Counter could work as a primary power play, with the standard "Toss" then working as a "Counter."

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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February 20, 2019 6:39 am  

What is needed is a Counter to the Counter with false keys to attack these teams.

One of these is the Counter Keeper.
The QB fakes a handoff Wing Counter, along with false pulls from the linemen, and hides the ball on his hip away from perceived play flow. The motion Wing leads him around the edge.

This is my preferred way to run the Wingback Counter, as I want our QB rolling out towards the countering Wingback, as opposed to the tight circle spin hand-off.  With the tight circle spin handoff, it's a "tell" that Counter is being run.  However, if the QB rolls out towards the countering Wingback, some of the defense will chase the QB, which opens the Counter even larger than a tight circle spin Counter.  And if it's a "fake Counter" QB-Keep, then yes, the motioning Back becomes the lead blocker for the QB.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
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February 21, 2019 6:07 am  

This is my preferred way to run the Wingback Counter, as I want our QB rolling out towards the countering Wingback, as opposed to the tight circle spin hand-off.  With the tight circle spin handoff, it's a "tell" that Counter is being run.  However, if the QB rolls out towards the countering Wingback, some of the defense will chase the QB, which opens the Counter even larger than a tight circle spin Counter.  And if it's a "fake Counter" QB-Keep, then yes, the motioning Back becomes the lead blocker for the QB.

Then this series is like buck sweep, but w the addition of that back motioning as you say.  Very interesting!

I've been coaching in a wing T program, and I'd like to look at what I'd see if we motioned the "wrong" WB like that & integrated that into the 20 series.  We've had 2 counters -- 1 to the WB (no motion), the other to the HB (counter stepping, really more like shifting his weight & shoulders).  The counters were the ones the backs had the most trouble getting their movements down correctly for, and sometimes they showed up a flaw in one G's spacing to the C.  I wonder whether your way would be more forgiving in execution -- although for football teaching purposes, I'd rather make sure they execute what we've got right, because it should easily be within their capabilities to do it consistently.


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DoubleWingCoach
(@doublewingcoach)
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February 25, 2019 9:07 am  

Great points on the ways to enhance Counter.... I almost forgot that I had run a play a few times in 2013 as I played with option...

It was the standard counter footwork for everyone from this formation... Ray 25 Counter Keep Option

          TE  T  G  C  G  T  TE
        3              Q    F        2
                           

Play was essentially the same as the 25 counter. Line would pull as if 25 counter... GATE on the backside of line. Guard to kickout Left DE, BSTE leading thru 5 hole for faking 2 back.  On Set, 3 back would turn his hips and go in DEEP ORBIT motion, on go QB takes snap and opens to motion, spins around as if to hand off to 2 back on 25 counter.  However he will keep the ball in front of his chest and he and the 2 back brush shoulders where the normal hand off would have occurred.  The 3 back stutter steps and adjusts speed to get in pitch distance of QB until the read.  If DE runs to pitch man, keep.  If DE runs to QB, pitch.  Usually ends up with the pitch man 1 on 1 with a corner back from the other team. Who are usually bad open field tacklers at youth.  Against my best running back at 3.  I'll take that all day. 


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Bob Goodman
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May 12, 2019 5:56 am  

Quote from: CoachDP on February 20, 2019, 11:39:53 AM

This is my preferred way to run the Wingback Counter, as I want our QB rolling out towards the countering Wingback, as opposed to the tight circle spin hand-off.  With the tight circle spin handoff, it's a "tell" that Counter is being run.  However, if the QB rolls out towards the countering Wingback, some of the defense will chase the QB, which opens the Counter even larger than a tight circle spin Counter.  And if it's a "fake Counter" QB-Keep, then yes, the motioning Back becomes the lead blocker for the QB.

Then this series is like buck sweep, but w the addition of that back motioning as you say.  Very interesting!

I've been coaching in a wing T program, and I'd like to look at what I'd see if we motioned the "wrong" WB like that & integrated that into the 20 series.  We've had 2 counters -- 1 to the WB (no motion), the other to the HB (counter stepping, really more like shifting his weight & shoulders).  The counters were the ones the backs had the most trouble getting their movements down correctly for, and sometimes they showed up a flaw in one G's spacing to the C.  I wonder whether your way would be more forgiving in execution -- although for football teaching purposes, I'd rather make sure they execute what we've got right, because it should easily be within their capabilities to do it consistently.

At the time I wrote that, I didn't know we'd be having spring training.  It's a weekly session that's much more practice-oriented than were the spring clinics I was used to.

So I brought this up to Coach Lance, who usually calls our offense, and he said that not only has he seen it done DP's and Bignose's way, but that it's in the playbook of the HS varsity Newton (NJ) Braves, the wing T team we model.  So they have a regular 20 (buck sweep) series Delaware style, and also this "backwards" series.


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dbayer66
(@dbayer66)
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December 11, 2019 10:27 am  

if i may, imho, one of the great features that can be used with counter xx is to have the player who made the first handoff (QB in DWing or TB - usually-  in SW) bootleg away from that handoff and get some space to the outside, the side where the ball will end up.

i know that some have the first handoff player lead through the hole or fake a pass.  we used to boot the player and then have him get into pitch relation.  all you have to do is have that kid who takes the 2nd hand off, pitch it to him once and you're off to the races.  in fact, you can pitch it in pre-game and not even pitch it in the game, if they see it, their DC will spend time making sure that the corner will cover the pitch and this will help the play tremendously. unfortunately, i do not have film of this, i got it from ol wing-t ball coach


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dbayer66
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December 20, 2019 6:20 am  

also, if I may, humbly submitted - another thing that can be done is to fake the counter criss cross.  when I was a young wing-t assistant many years ago, we faced an opponent who had their linebackers shouting "CRISS CROSS!" just as the play started. I never asked them what our tell was, but I suspect that when they saw the short side halfback and the TE side wing step toward each other at the snap, they figured out what was coming. so we started running wing t power and every once in a while we would have the wing fake the criss-cross hand off

so, why not every once in awhile, run regular counter, but with a tag word have the wing that is not getting the ball sprint opposite the wing who is getting the ball on the counter and fake the criss-cross handoff to him?  just a key breaker, apologies if  already discussed


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CoachDP
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December 20, 2019 7:46 am  

another thing that can be done is to fake the counter criss cross.  when I was a young wing-t assistant many years ago, we faced an opponent who had their linebackers shouting "CRISS CROSS!" just as the play started.

--We've had that happen on our Counter.

I never asked them what our tell was,

--We found what our tell was, and have since remedied it.

so we started running wing t power and every once in a while we would have the wing fake the criss-cross hand off

--Yes, we have started running the fake Counter and found that it works like a real Counter.  lol

just a key breaker

--Exactly, and that's how we tag it.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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coachstu123
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February 20, 2020 2:11 am  

Good stuff!  My proudest moment in coaching was avenging a 42-0 loss to a DW team that killed us with those damn counters (avenged with a 6-0 win in the ship).  Running a 5-4 and 6-2 we just cross-read with our d-ends, D-tackles and inside backers and made sure not to get any deeper than the O-line's heels.  Just gapped it up from there.  The biggest problem with stopping this DW stuff is that you just can't replicate it very well in practice.  Either you don't have enough kids, or it's just too complicated to teach a scout team O to run it with any efficiency.  But, if you can convince your kids to slow play the run, you can have some success against it.  I could be wrong, but what I think gives the DW the most problems is the depth, or lack thereof, of the defensive line penetration.  They want those ends and tackles coming up.  


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coachstu123
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February 20, 2020 2:20 am  

@www-coachcalande-com - LOL.  Coach, see my post above on success against DW.  Maybe that JV coach has a good point.

 


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