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blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
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Joined: 8 years ago
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September 6, 2018 5:21 pm  

Actually the easiest thing to do is run down and earhole the DE with your PSG...but what do I know.

If you're facing a man child who's already squeezing down for Power and blowing up kickout blocks from a G or a FB, how does Down fix that since the entire purpose of the play is to attack a player who is running upfield or widening to stop the sweep?


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Prodigy
(@prodigy)
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September 6, 2018 6:15 pm  

Granted I haven’t been coaching as long as some here...so I don’t have all of the answers and I haven’t seen every scenario.  With that said:

I’ve never run power or super Power or off tackle with the guard making the kickout on the end.  The base rule for the Power series is the FB kicks the first ugly outside of our playside end.  I’ve never seen a man child DE read and react quickly enough to decide that the play is NOT power-based, the FB is NOT making the kickout and turn down the LOS to meet the PSG to defeat his block. 

Also, by design, even if this magical DE that you speak of does manage to do this, the play is already gone.  I’ve NEVER seen a DE make a play on DOWN.  He crosses the LOS or tries to box or contain, likely thinking the WB is getting the ball and it’s in the gut of the FB and he’s already made 3 yards if not a first or a TD.

But really...if this manchild of a DE is on the field and he’s blowing up your power, you really mean to tell me that your PSW with no momentum is going to
Pin this kid?  Or you’re going to get him with your typically less skilled TE who again has no momentum...This is a situation where you need to run away from the kid if he’s really that good...

Yet..I’ve never encountered this kid...ever.  If my FB can’t block the DE I need to coach up the FB or get a new one.  The DW is premised on putting the DE in conflict...but really I don’t care.  If you can’t execute on power, not likely that sweep is going to work for you.  Running outside is a disease.

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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bigshel
(@bigshel)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 1497
September 7, 2018 9:46 am  

Granted I haven’t been coaching as long as some here...so I don’t have all of the answers and I haven’t seen every scenario.  With that said:

I’ve never run power or super Power or off tackle with the guard making the kickout on the end.  The base rule for the Power series is the FB kicks the first ugly outside of our playside end.  I’ve never seen a man child DE read and react quickly enough to decide that the play is NOT power-based, the FB is NOT making the kickout and turn down the LOS to meet the PSG to defeat his block. 

Also, by design, even if this magical DE that you speak of does manage to do this, the play is already gone.  I’ve NEVER seen a DE make a play on DOWN.  He crosses the LOS or tries to box or contain, likely thinking the WB is getting the ball and it’s in the gut of the FB and he’s already made 3 yards if not a first or a TD.

But really...if this manchild of a DE is on the field and he’s blowing up your power, you really mean to tell me that your PSW with no momentum is going to
Pin this kid?  Or you’re going to get him with your typically less skilled TE who again has no momentum...This is a situation where you need to run away from the kid if he’s really that good...

Yet..I’ve never encountered this kid...ever.  If my FB can’t block the DE I need to coach up the FB or get a new one.  The DW is premised on putting the DE in conflict...but really I don’t care.  If you can’t execute on power, not likely that sweep is going to work for you.  Running outside is a disease.

As a DW coach, you've never seen a DE squeeze down on power? When I was running the DW, we saw it all the time. Granted, maybe not with 6 or 7 y/o's where everyone's concerned with stopping the sweep, but from 10's on up, that's a pretty standard tactic vs. DW power. Sweep or power wide are great plays for creating conflict in the DE by pinning a squeezing DE.


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DoubleWingCoach
(@doublewingcoach)
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Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1672
September 7, 2018 12:41 pm  

Granted I haven’t been coaching as long as some here...so I don’t have all of the answers and I haven’t seen every scenario.  With that said:

I’ve never run power or super Power or off tackle with the guard making the kickout on the end.  The base rule for the Power series is the FB kicks the first ugly outside of our playside end.  I’ve never seen a man child DE read and react quickly enough to decide that the play is NOT power-based, the FB is NOT making the kickout and turn down the LOS to meet the PSG to defeat his block. 

Also, by design, even if this magical DE that you speak of does manage to do this, the play is already gone.  I’ve NEVER seen a DE make a play on DOWN.  He crosses the LOS or tries to box or contain, likely thinking the WB is getting the ball and it’s in the gut of the FB and he’s already made 3 yards if not a first or a TD.

But really...if this manchild of a DE is on the field and he’s blowing up your power, you really mean to tell me that your PSW with no momentum is going to
Pin this kid?  Or you’re going to get him with your typically less skilled TE who again has no momentum...This is a situation where you need to run away from the kid if he’s really that good...

Yet..I’ve never encountered this kid...ever.  If my FB can’t block the DE I need to coach up the FB or get a new one.  The DW is premised on putting the DE in conflict...but really I don’t care.  If you can’t execute on power, not likely that sweep is going to work for you.  Running outside is a disease.

Well I see a few problems with your theory on the D End.... First off most youth teams have ONE good D End.  And the other kid is usually not NEARLY as good as the Defensive end they put on the right side of your offense (Also this is if the Defensive Coordinator has a clue, which isn't always guaranteed).. So that being said the DE on the LEFT side of your offense is probably half the defender that the right side kid is....
On the right hand side the BIGGEST thing with defensive ends making plays is HAT PLACEMENT by your FB.  If your fullback puts his helmet on the outside shoulder of the DE because he either can't get proper inside hat placement or the DE beats him to the inside he will be standing in the running lane for Power.... And will cause you ALL SORTS OF PROBLEMS..... But your FB may be getting hampered by the fact the DE is squeezing down on the TE on that side..... Which puts him in PRIME spot to be pinned....

We've also seen D ends simply stand in front of my Tight End and tie him up.... Cause a pile up right at the POA.... This is another great time to sweep....  Because if he stands there he can easily be pinned by a wing or reach blocked by the PSTE.....

Now back to my point about the OTHER D End..... on the left. I run Trojan Sweep and it's primarily run from right to left..... Very high speed. Tons of pullers.... a literal stampede around the end.  RIGHT AT THE WEAKER of the two defensive ends....  Can I run Gun Left and run Trojan to the Right???? Of course.... But I choose not to, because I want their best kid DE dealing with power all day...... And i want their second best DE getting crushed by Trojan Sweep....


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Prodigy
(@prodigy)
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September 8, 2018 7:07 am  

I did not say I’ve never seen a DE try to pinch down.  I said that I’ve never seen a man child of a DE who can read and react quickly enough to decide the FB isn’t making the kickout on him and then turn and defeat the PSG on down.

End of the day I don’t really care.  I post here to entertain myself and waste time in the day, not because I actually think I’m decent at coaching or have anything worth sharing that might help someone else. 

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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DoubleWingCoach
(@doublewingcoach)
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September 8, 2018 2:08 pm  

Shit i'm armchair coaching this year so I am doing the same..... 🙂

I hated sweeping out of DTDW formation.. .None of it really ever worked for me and power always did.... That changed when i went to more Gun.. Power still worked and the Trojan literally CRUSHED teams...


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Prodigy
(@prodigy)
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September 8, 2018 6:00 pm  

We absolutely decimated teams with base power in an unlimited weight format and were ranked #20 in the nation.  We really should have gone to nationals but I screwed the pooch.

In any case, I think that results really vary from league to league and such.  I just hate sweep because I think it’s overused in youth football.  This may sound dumb but I also think it doesn’t fit well with the DTDW philosophy of creating vertical spread instead of lateral.  Sweep is a space play seeking horizontal spread.  It also often comes down to the back just being faster than the edge defender and less about making blocks.  I also think that guards and tackles trying to make a block in space with a sweep is significantly more difficult than them crowding a lane for Power, where we get to the second level and look for a cutback lane.  I’m just not a fan of sweep.  We rarely rarely ran it because Power, counter, trap, wedge worked so well.  We battered teams on the inside.

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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tiger46
(@tiger46)
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September 8, 2018 8:05 pm  

Both sweep and off-tackle power killed for us today.  Honestly, I think most opposing coaches can't tell the difference between the two as long as you run your sweeps as tight as possible.  We try to run ours ~two yards outside of the TE. 

“It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. ”  ― Frederick Douglass


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blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
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September 9, 2018 7:13 am  

I did not say I’ve never seen a DE try to pinch down.  I said that I’ve never seen a man child of a DE who can read and react quickly enough to decide the FB isn’t making the kickout on him and then turn and defeat the PSG on down.

End of the day I don’t really care.  I post here to entertain myself and waste time in the day, not because I actually think I’m decent at coaching or have anything worth sharing that might help someone else.

My point is that it doesn't matter if the DE identifies whether the FB or the G is going for the kick out.  If he's well coached and/or just a stout kid who squeezes down at the LOS with his shoulders square to stuff the FB on Power, but you're coming at him with Down... he's going to blow up the POA either way and make a mess out of the play.

Down has its purpose. and at the 6/7 age group you may be able to get away with this anyway.  When I was coaching at that level, we had a couple of DEs who were so big and strong that it didn't matter if it was a G or FB doing the kick out on him... he would just sit at the hole and it looked like the kick out man was running into a brick wall because that DE didn't budge an inch.

Now, the reason I like a sweep that down blocks the DE here is because a WB, if he opens up properly and gets his facemark on the DE's thigh board, will be using the DE's own momentum against him when he squeezes down.  Then when the sweep gets outside, the WB at least has enough position on him to be a speed bump and get in his way when he has to redirect, which is usually just enough time for the sweep to cut up.  Usually those kinds of kids are big and will clog up the POA, but they're not going to make a tackle on a play that gets past them.

But what do I know?  I've only coached this game at different levels from 6 year olds all the way up to large high school ball for the past 10 years, including being a freshman/JV HC and varsity OC, OL, DL, and LB coach...


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Prodigy
(@prodigy)
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September 9, 2018 12:20 pm  

My point is that it doesn't matter if the DE identifies whether the FB or the G is going for the kick out.  If he's well coached and/or just a stout kid who squeezes down at the LOS with his shoulders square to stuff the FB on Power, but you're coming at him with Down... he's going to blow up the POA either way and make a mess out of the play.

I don’t know how you run down but a DE who can fill 4 and 6 and blow up Power and down just by being present on the field isn’t something I’ve ever seen.  Sounds like a dangerous proposition even trying to run sweep in his direction because he must pretty well own the side of the field that he steps foot on.

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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Coach Davs
(@coach-chris)
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November 19, 2018 6:48 am  

The trojan sweep that I run and Murphy runs isn't like any DW sweep that I know of.....  It hits MUCH faster. I have plenty of footage of that play in my 2016 film on youtube...

I pull BOTH guards and the backside TE.

Playside TE has the reach block on the defensive end.  My 3 back or Left wing (remember the trojan is out of the Gun) by RULE if he sees ANY part of the Defensive End sticking out past the PSTE (meaning the TE was unable to effectively reach block the DE) he is to help the PSTE with that block. 

There is a HERD of offensive linemen running around the corner AND the fullback.... The guards get around the corner and get their eyes inside for linebackers.  The Fullback usually targets the lone cornerback on that side. and the backside Tight End is essentially my high speed killing machine, running out in front of my sweeping 2 back looking for usually the only kid left on defense which is the safety....

I scored more TD's with Trojan Sweep from the gun that probably any other play in my playbook... It's REALLY that good...

Trojan is by far and away my most used and favorite play. It is not some soft sweep. It is power just a gap wider. You will see a few in these highlights including my favorite the QB Trojan that gets the extra blocker with the 2 back leading.
http://www.hudl.com/v/2Afy2N

Christopher DavenportStrength Coach & OC Whiting High SchoolNorthlake Pop Warner Football CommissionerOffense=Murphy Shotgun WingDefense=3-4


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jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
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Posts: 6431
November 19, 2018 12:54 pm  

But what do I know?  I've only coached this game at different levels from 6 year olds all the way up to large high school ball for the past 10 years, including being a freshman/JV HC and varsity OC, OL, DL, and LB coach...

Oh, boy.  The old my resume is bigger than yours...  ::)

So if I coached youth for 13 years, and youth DW for 9.5 of those years, is mine bigger?

Anyway, I do think Prodigy is off a tad, although having seen his teams play, I understand why he's saying that.  I know sweep was tough for me to get up and going my first few years in DW.

I think that you can/will run into a DE who can make your life miserable in the C gap.  And I do think the sweep play as laid out by the OP is a great option to get around that guy.  I ran Trojan pulling both G's - WB down on DE, FB kick CB, both G's around the alley to pick up PSLB and whoever else shows.  Keep it tight; it's an alley play more so than a traditional youth "sweep", although as time went on, when I had faster kids they would make their way to the sideline and break it. Usually 5-7 yards down the field, though.

One thing to be conscious of is that this is gap unsound the way it's drawn up to the play side--the T is blocking both playside B and playside A gap.  You're going to need your C and backside of the OL to scoop their playside gap to stay sound. 

Hmmm - despite all of your years of coaching, you don't have much in the DW do you?  There's no such thing as a B gap AND a playside A gap in zero splits.  The T will have one guy to block, the C does NOT need to scoop playside.  He might have to block on or cut off backside A gap.  One or the other.

If the D is TNT, you may want to call off a BSG pull, or have a call to pull the BST or BSTE instead.  That backside A gap is the one most likely to blow up the play.


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