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Flipping the Offense?

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bdjackson
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While attending Coach High Wyatts Zoom Clinic last night he mentioned flipping the offense which I found very odd for players at that level. I always assumed it was something seen ONLY at the youngest levels of football. However, hearing that made me wonder if it is something I should try again this year. 

We flipped our line the first year I ran the DW, which helped, but as a first year DW and Header its impact on our offense was not something that I really paid much attention too unfortunately. I was pretty far in over my head as it was. Looking back I’d say it helped with install time and confidence of responsibility, but they could have been far better with better coaching. 

With all of that said, what advantages and disadvantage/problems have you had with flipping either your line our entire offense.

—Brian 

Being Capable, first begins with being Confident.


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gumby_in_co
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Advantages:

Install time

Competence -  players got better at their jobs faster

Knowledge - players knew their jobs inside and out

 

Disadvantages

Subbing - harder to change a puller into a waller and a waller into a puller. That year, we had 25 players and ran 2 full offensive units, so that helped. If we needed to sub, we'd just grab the lineman from "Black" offense and plug him into "White" offense.

Counters/reverses - we flipped the entire offense by choice and we were 100% "check with me". We could not figure out a way to call counters/reverses from the sideline. One day, the backs lined up on the wrong side. Kent just yelled "Counter!" QB looked confused, so Kent yelled "Just run it!". QB shrugged and ran the counter for a TD. 

Wedge - Early on, our wedge went a little sideways due to so much beef on the power side, but over the season, it seemed to work itself out. No idea why.

 

Surprises

Chinese Fire Drill - Early on, we were bothered at how sloppy it looked when we called a FLIP! on the field. We started debating coaching a more orderly way of shifting. Then, we realized that it got done quickly and the chaos thoroughly confused defenses. In fact, the most effective defenses were the ones who didn't move a muscle when we flipped. So we stuck with the "Chinese Fire Drill"

Scouting - This has been beaten to death, but I am convinced that defenses will not be able to scout you based on your flip. Many coaches will argue to the contrary, but I will leave you with this anecdote. One day, I was running scout defense one day vs Power Hour. We had 25 kids on the team at the time, so we often ran a full defense. If everyone came to practice, we ran 12.  This particular day, I was trying to load up the power side. I was not able to get extra bodies to the POA in time for the snap despite the following advantages:

1) I was the co-architect of this offense

2) I was very familiar with the players on the offensive side of the ball

3) I was standing in the defensive backfield, physically moving defenders

4) I wasn't concerned with "swapping" players. I was simply trying to grab 3-4 extra players from the non-play side and moving them to the play side.

So it is very doubtful to me that a coach who is not familiar with the DW (let alone your particular flavor of DW) will be able to identify the power side of the o-line (especially if they don't huddle) and move his defenders from one side to the other from the sideline in time for the snap. More likely, you will snap the ball while the defense is still trying to adjust.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Bob Goodman
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I'd be especially interested in hearing from coaches of wing T systems on this.  Since 2017 I've been in a wing T program, and it occurs to me now to ask why, when we have "100" and "900" formations, do we differ only in which of the HBs lines up at WB (and which E would split, if we ever did that, which we rarely did) -- which alters the timing and choice of plays left vs. right -- and not flip the OL?  I've already posted here my suggestion to cheat the FB forward and slightly to the wing side and change the QB's footwork accordingly.

We had such difficulty getting our back side pulling G to the POA on power that we stopped doing it.  Maybe if only one of our guards could specialize in that, we could reduce that problem.  I suppose we want to preserve the threat of going from WB motion, which we practiced a lot but didn't use as much in games because our execution wasn't as good.  When we motioned, we were practically tipping off that it wasn't going to be WB power or belly 2nd back.

Ach!  I didn't see until after I posted that this thread was in the Double Wing Football section.  But it's not like we have a ton of traffic here anyway, so mind if I leave this here?

This post was modified 4 weeks ago by Bob Goodman

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bdjackson
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@bob-goodman

NO problem at all. 

I actually considered putting it in the blocking forum but since it stemmed from the Wyatt Clinic I started here. 

I might throw another question in that forum as well to broaden the discussion. 

—Brian

Being Capable, first begins with being Confident.


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @bob-goodman

Maybe if only one of our guards could specialize in that, we could reduce that problem. 

I can darned near guarantee it. 

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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CoachDP
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I tried flipping my line one time (my first year coaching high school ball).  It was horrible for us and really handcuffed our offense.  I never tried it again.  Once we went back to both sides pulling, we were so much better.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @coachdp

It was horrible for us and really handcuffed our offense.  

--Dave

How so? This was DW, right?

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Coyote
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Greetings coaches

we flipped the O when I coached under a slot I HC.   He always said he hoped teams would think they had us based on the flip.  We ran so many counters and the defense never knew when it was coming he believed the defense was fooling themselves and becoming unsound by trying to scheme us.   

since we regularly ran up nice offensive stats I’m inclined to agree 

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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Coyote
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Re;  wing T and the flip.  

as a wing T  guy I see no reason not to do so.   If you only have one puller you have confidence in, then especially do so.    My HC thinks it’d be confusing for our level kids.   I don’t, but he is the boss any we’ve been pretty good as we are.    Thought I had him convinced to try it a while back but he’s kinda backed off it again

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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Dusty Ol Fart
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Personal experience was bad however, I did get away with swapping guards.  Swapping the entire formation ( Wing Right to Wing Left) did not work at all for us.  That being said, if all you are going to run is some version of "Power" regardless, then it might be possible.   

We played a team that swapped sides with G and T almost every play, it became predictable what they were going to do.  

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co

How so? This was DW, right?

Yes, Double Wing.  It was a tell that hampered us, losing the misdirection aspect of the offense.  I've also found that learning how to pull one direction, is easier than having players learn to pull both directions (while alternating their stagger and their down hand).  It slowed our install and players weren't comfortable from changing from side to side.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @gumby_in_co

How so? This was DW, right?

Yes, Double Wing.  It was a tell that hampered us, losing the misdirection aspect of the offense.  I've also found that learning how to pull one direction, is easier than having players learn to pull both directions (while alternating their stagger and their down hand).  It slowed our install and players weren't comfortable from changing from side to side.

--Dave

Maybe it was because Kent and I ran it 100% no huddle, check with me. Perhaps defenses didn't have enough time to key on it. We did struggle with footwork. I do remember that. If a kid likes stepping with his right foot, he will tend to keep doing it even if he switches sides and should be stepping with his left. I guess we decided to be more stubborn than the players. We did a LOT of bird dog to fix those little things.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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CoachSteel
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We run wing T and we flip. We have our strong side and what I call our “quick” side of the OL. I think the biggest advantage to it is the amount of time you can get splitting your O line in half to work on specific plays run to each side. I have two O-line coaches, one who is in charge of the strong side and one in charge of the quick side. I also spend the majority of time with the line. That way, throughout the season I can have my strong side working on Down, and Buck series while my quick side works on Belly, Belly sweep and dive (we run a quick side dive instead of trap) We only pull our strong side guard so I only have to identify one starting pulling guard and one backup. I’ve had more success just having my backside guard cutting off a LB than I have pulling them and actually leading through the hole to get a hat on a backer. I just feel like flipping cuts down on the amount of plays the kids have to learn, and we become way more efficient in getting kids reps on the plays where their blocks are key to the success of the play. 


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mahonz
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Back in my double pulling days we never flipped. 

Wish I had. Its a task finding 4 effective pullers. Flipping would have been a better use of our limited time IMHO. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @mahonz

Back in my double pulling days we never flipped. 

Wish I had. Its a task finding 4 effective pullers. Flipping would have been a better use of our limited time IMHO. 

Also consider that as often as not, we are unbalanced. Almost have to flip when you're unbalanced.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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