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Getting started with the Double Wing - Question about the toss  

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terrypjohnson
(@terrypjohnson)
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March 28, 2020 4:45 pm  

After running the Single Wing for the past two years, I'm switching to the Double Wing as my base offense. I plan to run it from under center and from the shotgun. I've read Coach Valloton's "The Toss", studied DoubleWingCoach's videos, and browsed a number of other sources for information.

While I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the offense, there's one question I can't seem to find an answer to. Specifically, can I run toss at the 8U age group or am I ahead to use a handoff? If I use pitch, how shallow should the wingback be?

I'm asking this question because I don't know whether I'm coaching 8U or 10U (or hopefully both) this fall, so I wanted to go ahead and prepare for both.

Thank you in advance for your insights!

Coach Terry

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
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March 28, 2020 7:46 pm  

Yes you can

 

Can you teach it? Reach out to Coach DP and Jack Gregory. 

 

I did it with 8u and it was rediculously effective.  Takes practice just like everything. Stay committed to it.

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
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March 28, 2020 7:59 pm  
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

After running the Single Wing for the past two years, I'm switching to the Double Wing as my base offense. 

Insanity!


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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March 28, 2020 9:14 pm  
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

can I run toss at the 8U age group or am I ahead to use a handoff?

--You can toss.  But you may not want to.  Most coaches (at that age group) struggle mightily with the toss. Motion speed & depth, timing of the exchange, depth of pitch, WB & QB footwork and getting the QB out in front of the ball-carrier are usually screwed up.  Fix one issue and another develops.  These are all issues that have to be rectified in toss.  With a hand-off, those issues are minimized.  A reverse-pivot hand-off with the QB bootlegging out the backside will get the offense up to speed sooner, as well as give you a backside scoring threat if your QB has speed and defenses are playing in tight.  But can you run it with a toss?  Absolutely.

If I use pitch, how shallow should the wingback be?

--Depends on how you want to run toss.  You can run it shallow, where the Wingback is practically taking the ball out of the QB's hands.  You can run it deep, where the ball is pitched 5 yards.  There's advantages to both.  Successful teams have done it both ways.  We run both, but as separate plays.

I'm asking this question because I don't know whether I'm coaching 8U or 10U (or hopefully both) this fall, so I wanted to go ahead and prepare for both.

--Age group doesn't matter.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Boug
 Boug
(@boug)
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April 3, 2020 12:43 pm  

Never coached that age group only Highschool but what helped on Power (Toss) us when we first went Double Wing was I put a flat cone where I wanted the wing to catch the ball, it was 4-5 yards behind the backside OG.  I told the wing I did not care how he gets to the cone but in our cadence he goes on Ready and  he needs to be at the cone when he catches the ball.  We just repped it and repped it and they figured it  out.  We had 2 QB, one with the left wing and one with the right and they should practice pitching to the wing and getting their steps down.  After a certain amount of reps they would switch sides to work on pitching the other direction.  I want the QB to turn and pitch to a spot and the  wing needs to be at the spot, again I do not care about his footwork, what path he takes to get there, he just needs to figure out when to leave and when to be at that cone to catch the pitch.


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Bob Goodman
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April 3, 2020 8:04 pm  
Posted by: @coachdp

--Depends on how you want to run toss.  You can run it shallow, where the Wingback is practically taking the ball out of the QB's hands.  You can run it deep, where the ball is pitched 5 yards.  There's advantages to both.  Successful teams have done it both ways.  We run both, but as separate plays.

 When do you run one, and when the other?

 


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CoachDP
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April 3, 2020 10:44 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman When do you run one, and when the other?

Usually, they're change-ups, meaning it has to do less with a defensive key and more with us just wanting to run a variation.  However, both plays are blocked differently.  

But in the old days, if we had a speed back, we'd use him on deep toss and a slower back on shallow toss.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Coach Correa
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April 5, 2020 8:49 am  

Since you guys brought it up. All this time down got me looking at my version of Power O play and once again im feeling like you get more bang for your buck tossing on power even out WT . My ? How deep are you getting motion back when he catches toss and were do you prefer him catching toss ?

Head Coach Tito Correa New Britain Raiders 14-U


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CoachDP
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April 5, 2020 11:53 pm  
Posted by: @coach-correa

How deep are you getting motion back when he catches toss and were do you prefer him catching toss ?

Depends on whether we're running it shallow or deep.  If we're running it shallow, it's at Fullback-depth and the Wingback catches the pitch behind the backside Guard's LOS alignment.  If we're running it deep ("Orbit"), it's at 3-5 yards deep.  The Wingback still catches the pitch behind the backside Guard's LOS alignment.  

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Coach Correa
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April 6, 2020 3:42 pm  

@coachdp are both approaches for power play ?

 

Head Coach Tito Correa New Britain Raiders 14-U


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CoachDP
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April 6, 2020 5:38 pm  
Posted by: @coach-correa

@coachdp are both approaches for power play ?

Yes, both are for Power.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Coach Correa
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April 6, 2020 5:49 pm  

@coachdp Interesting. Whats the difference ? and why ?  

 

Head Coach Tito Correa New Britain Raiders 14-U


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gumby_in_co
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April 6, 2020 6:07 pm  

About a thousand years ago, I was a Double Wingnut. One of my heaviest influences was a team from FL called the Kendall Hammocks Warriors. I used their 6U Youtube videos to prove that 8 year olds could run the DW. They employed the toss and it their execution was jaw dropping. Just do a Youtube search on KH warriors double wing. 

There's a solid argument for the "hockey stick" QB motion and the handoff, but if it's me, I prefer the extra blocker.  When Ken Calkins and I ran the DW, we had a "boot" tag for the QB that told him to fake the toss and run backside. It was pretty darned good and a simple install. 

During this beer flu vacation, I did some Spring cleaning and found some old DVD roms with game footage from around 2010. I sat down with my (now adult) son and re-lived his glory days over a couple of beers. One thing that struck me was that our toss seemed to cause a traffic jam. Our WB would go in motion, then have to wait for the toss.  Then, we watched the "swine flu" game. Fully 1/2 of our team was out with the flu and we moved a bunch of guys around. I remember that game because we had an idiot ref who kept flagging our WB motion as a false start, so we killed the motion. The timing was much better without the motion. Also, I've been coaching with Mike Mahoney aka Mahonz and he's never been a fan of the RIP motion in the DW. Based on my old film study, I think he's right. 

I'm going to run DW action with mega splits this fall and the plan is to do it without motion. If we have football this Fall . . . I'll let everyone know how it goes.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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April 6, 2020 11:35 pm  
Posted by: @coach-correa

@coachdp Interesting. Whats the difference ? and why ?  

The more ways that we can augment Power, the more effective it's been for us.  Running Power just one way makes it an easier play to defend.  Shallow Power hits very quick, almost like Wedge.  Orbit Power allows for a faster Back to take greater depth and see where the gaps and lanes form.  With Shallow Power, we aren't looking for lanes or gaps.  We're running up into the apex, ASAP.  Over the decades that I've run the Double Wing, I've found that some years running it shallow worked best, while other years Orbit worked best.  After a while, I wised up and realized it didn't have to be one or the other.  It could be both.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Coach Correa
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April 7, 2020 5:07 pm  

@coachdp Got u and  thank u hopefully i see tonight in stones clinic with the best teacher i ever had !!!!!!

 

Head Coach Tito Correa New Britain Raiders 14-U


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