I have held that I would only run gun DW if my QB was one of my top 2-3 runners.  My take has been if he's just a hand-off machine, you're better off under center where you can hide the ball a bit better/lead block on toss. Perhaps for passing, but I'm not a big passer.

Is that an accurate consideration?

Yes.

--Dave

One of the things I learned from watching Tebow at  UF is that qb doesn't necessarily need to be a tailback. Sometimes especially if you have a back, the qb in the gun can be the FULLBACK

our "Bazooka" formation.....Ill just let your imagination run for a bit...

000x000
...............2....................1
.........4
......3

We turned to this when we lost jv qb 1 and varsity qb 1 in the same week this year.

So JJ, do you still do UTC? Or primarily gun now?

My last season on the sideline was 100% gun ... working the kinks out of some ideas I had ... but then I decided to take a few years off while my kids finish up HS and HS Sports ... I will be looking next year or the year after to get back on the sidelines and depending on the age of the kids will either go GUN or a mixture of GUN and UC ...

The write up above was something I wrote a few years ago as I started putting everything on paper for my version of the DWGun ...

Again, not completely looking for answers, more looking for discussion and opinions.

What kind of runner the QB is doesn't really matter to me (TB vs. FB).  My main point is that I've only turned to Gun in the past to run the QB.

TO ME, there are only two real advantages to being in Gun - QB run game and passing. It's not that you cannot do both U/C, just saying those work a little better out of Gun.

What works better U/C?  FB run game (wedge specifically) and most misdirection plays that rely on deception (easy for QB to hide the ball).  You'd have to go SW spinner to get the deception that you have normally U/C.

DW specific, the QB toss and lead is better U/C than in Gun.

So when I start looking at this, those are the things I'm thinking about.  Again TO ME, everything else is pretty close to the same.

So my decision would seem to come down to those factors - do I want the QB lead block on power, do I want the misdirection deception of the QB hiding the ball as he opens, and do I want to run wedge more than I want to run the QB and pass?

What am I missing? Again, not saying you can't do this or that in either, just saying that certain things work a little better in one vs. the other.

JJ,
For what it's worth:

1 - The Gun alignment allows you to use the QB to control the backside rush by "reading" the DE, just like the "Spread " guys do. You lose the QB as a frontside blocker, but with the kids we have had at QB lately, it wasn't much of a loss. This was our Power Boot read. We haven't been allowed to cut block with our backside TE since 2009, so this helped us on the backside.
We tried to pull the TE, ala Murphy, but out backs were getting to the POA too fast, and I was not about to slow the backs down. We seldom pulled the tackles for the same reason. Our motion was fast! 75%.

We use the QB more as a runner and blocker but yes we also use him to boot and hold the DE or show a 'read' like the 'spread guys' ... while the timing and footwork to get the QB in front is not impossible, I agree that it is not practicle ... however we use him as a runner with the WB leading quite a bit so no loss in blocking ... we stopped cutting when in the GUN because the ball leaves the FBZ so quickly on the snap that I dont want to argue with the officials who are overhyper and over sensitive about safety these days ... but no loss in effectiveness because we just block back with the Tackle and pull the more athletic and much faster TE ... in fact this allowed our backs to attack the hole much faster because those slow ass Tackles arent in the way anymore ... lol

2 - We still ran just about our entire DW inventory of plays. Counters, Traps, Rocket Sweep (looked like a Speed Option but it wasn't), etc. Blast became a much better choice than Power for some reason. Obviously, our passing game was enhanced. I liked being able to run a Wing -lead Trap. It kills a 4-4.

YES ... we not only run all of our plays but we now can run as many as 2 or 3 different players on each play where before we were kinda stuck to 1 or 2 ... BLAST has been my go to play for several years prior to going GUN ... that is based on how defenses tend to defend our B and C gap area ... DW is old news in my league (Darrin Fisher was running it for years before I arrived) and to avoid the down blocks and double teams we see a lot of empty B gaps where we can BLAST all day long ... Passing game wise the hidden gem is that the QB is facing the defense so no blind drop backs even when doing play action ... and as I mentioned TRAP is a much more open play in the GUN ... I think that has to do with 2 things ... First, the defense doesnt crowd the box quite as much ... Second the focus point of the DTs has moved deeper into the backfield causing them to attack deeper with a steeper angle when they penetrate which makes 'wrong-arming' much more difficult ...

3 - We gained the ability to run the Power / Jet Read (Inverted Veer) to the front side just like the Spread guys, too.

YES ... the horizontal game with JET is certainly more viable from a step or two deeper ... just the threat of this is helping to keep the interior running lanes more open ...

4 - The biggest disadvantage was losing the FB as a runner.

And this is why we dont use our FB as a sniffer any more ... We are losing the best kickout angle in football but we are gaining more threats and more misdirection and a more wide open defense as they see and react to a more wide open offensive formation ... our FB is basically in the B gap area just a step in front of the QB in depth ... if we want a sniffer angle kickout we can have the HB (think left wing) come across the formation in a flat motion or just move to the A gap on the right side and hangle our kickout ... we use a 'hammer' of a kid at HB and a 'speed' kid at WB so having the HB do the kickout is not an issue for us ... now the FB can run POWER with the HB kicking out ... or the QB can run it after faking cross buck to the FB ... or the list of variations is endless ... And the FB can still make that kickout with a nice banana route ... Or the Guard can handle the kickout ... like I said the variations are endless ... I LOVE THAT POWER PLAY !!!

5 - It is also not as deceptive as far as concealing the ball, as the under center version can, rather, it depends more on flow and misdirection. (Power Boot Read and  Inverted Veer are examples of this)

Absolutely less deceptive and that is why I chose DW over the SW so many years ago ... but I do think it is easier to show 'false flow' from the GUN ... and using flow for deception is good enough ... the DWGun hits faster and more downhill on most POWER plays as well so the defense not crowding the line and loading the box as much means they must react more quickly and that helps the misdirection false flow concept work really well ...

6 - The biggest concern I had with this was the timing.

Like my experience with the DW, I usually dont fret too much over the timing or footwork so long as the backs hit the hole when I want them to ... we use things like the towel drill (towel in back of pullers pants that the runner must retrieve) so ensure they are right in tight behind the lead blocks and let each back kinda go from there ... our QB runs a lot of plays so there are less exchanges that can go wrong but that means we have to work on them more to keep them smooth ... so the snap is crucial to the success of this offense ... but our QB's learn early that any bobble or poor snap their job is to keep the ball and go to the hole ... the backs learn to lead to the hole and ignore the ball if they see a bobble and this gives us a built in 'fix' for those situations ... 

One of the concepts we are looking at from the Gun DW is the addition of a "Spinner" series to create some deception.
What this would do is to force the QB to do the spin, fake to a motioning wing and then hit up the middle.

The Inverted Veer accomplishes much the same thing, and I don't know if the redundancy factor is worth the effort.

Add some FB Counter Trap, etc. and now we have some deception as well as misdirection to create uncertainty.
It's a possibility……...

In 2008, as a supplement to our under center offense, we ran some of this, and even though the QB was tiny (5'-6" and 145) he was quick as a hiccup and fearless about running inside. Defenses couldn't catch him to hit him hard. Even under center, we tried to have a running series in for the QB.

From 2011 thru 2014 our QBs wouldn't hit a snake with a stick, but in 2015 our QB was a good sized track kid who was a decent runner.

Again, not completely looking for answers, more looking for discussion and opinions.

What kind of runner the QB is doesn't really matter to me (TB vs. FB).  My main point is that I've only turned to Gun in the past to run the QB.

TO ME, there are only two real advantages to being in Gun - QB run game and passing. It's not that you cannot do both U/C, just saying those work a little better out of Gun.

What works better U/C?  FB run game (wedge specifically) and most misdirection plays that rely on deception (easy for QB to hide the ball).  You'd have to go SW spinner to get the deception that you have normally U/C.

DW specific, the QB toss and lead is better U/C than in Gun.

So when I start looking at this, those are the things I'm thinking about.  Again TO ME, everything else is pretty close to the same.

So my decision would seem to come down to those factors - do I want the QB lead block on power, do I want the misdirection deception of the QB hiding the ball as he opens, and do I want to run wedge more than I want to run the QB and pass?

What am I missing? Again, not saying you can't do this or that in either, just saying that certain things work a little better in one vs. the other

Couldn't agree more with this assessment of gun vs UC...

This season we ended up being in Gun 40% and UC 60%. It really came down to the defense and the opponent and what we expected from them.  If they sat back in a standard defense we generally went Gun.... If they pressed up on the line and blitz we'd go UC mostly and wedge/trap/power.... We'd use the tight splits and misdirection from UC to make blitzers run by the kid with the ball....

Occasionally if they pressed we'd go to Gun to pass which is WAAAAAAY better than UC.... We had a few Gun screens that were nasty....

However I can tell you this and it mirrors what Murphy says.  The TROJAN SWEEPS from Gun are absolutely NASTY running plays for tightly aligned defenses and they opened up a LOT of Gun Power for us when the Defensive ends spread out to stop sweeps....  the depth of your tailback in Gun also allows you to pull backside Tight end and Backside Guard. If your TE's are athletes you can literally hit the hole full speed with an athletic blocker dead in front of him. 

I don't think i'll ever go back to 100% UC.  It will always be a mix of the Gun, UC, and i'm also impressed with some of Murphy's pistol stuff.....  I also used Eagle and Eagle Heavy which during the playoffs became critical formations.  Eagle was a wildcat package and Eagle Heavy was the same package using TWIN fullbacks and moved a bigger back to the Right wing position.... This was Eagle Heavy

    TE  T  G  C  G  T  TE
                        F        W
                        F
                  Q

Eagle was a wildcat package and Eagle Heavy was the same package using TWIN fullbacks and moved a bigger back to the Right wing position.... This was Eagle Heavy

    TE  T  G  C  G  T  TE
                        F        W
                        F
                  Q

So you have twin FBs stacked in the G/T gap? Are you running in that gap or blocking big on big and letting your back find whatever opens up?

I ran with that Eagle formation as an alternative to Beast. It gave me the same blast blocking, a little better angle to get out in front of sweep for the deep offset back, and a nice little counter to him that was easier to run than out of Beast.  I ran it with the TB as the deep offset  back, but I only had one TB, and when he came out I did use a second FB.  I believe in Murphy's playbook it's the QB over there.

So you have twin FBs stacked in the G/T gap? Are you running in that gap or blocking big on big and letting your back find whatever opens up

Yes I have two FB's stacked in the G/T gap.  I would also sometimes pull my normal 2 back (the right wing) and put in a bigger back (usually my 3 back or ANOTHER fullback)....

I typically liked running this as BLAST play as opposed to a POWER but I could run it both ways..... Here's my rules for the BLAST

We would rule block to the 4 MAN (the right tackle)

    X  T  G  C  G  T  Y
                      F      W
                      F     
                Q

X- 2 PULL Lead to Corner
LT-Fast Inside Reach
LG-1 Pull past center and attack 1st backer inside
C-MOMA (man on man away)
RG-GOD
RT-GOOD
Y-(Blast play) Fan out on Defensive End forming the "tunnel"
W-Release INSIDE of Y's block linking up with F1 shoulder to shoulder and lead thru hole.
F1-bucket step towards W linking up shoulder to shoulder and lead thru hole
F2-Attack downhill with F1/W and pullers
Q-Get snap, gather up ball, and takeoff towards 4 mans hip, look for daylight...

If I ran this with a POWER tag the only change would be the W would go back to rule blocking and he would be FBI. The Y man would block Gap Down Backer.  The F1 would kickout the DE, and the F2 would lead thru the hole with the pullers... It works better as a blast however for tightly aligned DE's....
 

Oh one thing I forgot to add was one of our plays that was ABSOLUTELY MONEY out of the Gun Wing....

Teams got so scared of Trojan Sweeps I noticed a lot of defenses started widening out after seeing us on film destroying tightly aligned defenses with 27 Trojan Sweep (both guards and backside TE pulling VERY deep and getting out in front of my 2 back full speed.....

So we ran what was essentially Jet motion from my wing and a quick cadence from the QB. The wing would take off on set full speed simulating jet sweep. Snap was quick and basically QB would belly ride the wing across the formation as he sidestepped with the wing.  As soon as he got to be lined up with the 5 hole with shoulders square he would pull the ball and attack the 5 hole with pullers right in front of him. 

We called it LASER OUT 15 COUNTER...... It was typically good for BIG 25+ yard gains as the linebackers would over pursue the faking wingback.... of course this is if you have a good runner at QB... But a tailback could also be taught this play as long as he learns how to belly ride a running back in the read option...

We called it LASER OUT 15 COUNTER......

So reading your description - faking jet left and running the QB off tackle left?  So not counter to the other side of the fake, but under the fake, so to speak?

I had a similar play running power under rocket motion.  I just never ran rocket so it wasn't as effective as it could have been.  We still had it work some, but I would guess nowhere near as well as if we were running rocket too.

I had a similar play running power under rocket motion.  I just never ran rocket so it wasn't as effective as it could have been.  We still had it work some, but I would guess nowhere near as well as if we were running rocket too.

If you go on youtube and watch Highlights of this year from Clayton Valley it looks like they run a ton of QB power under the rocket motion.

Entirely possible I got it from Murphy, since I've been playing around with his offense since he first went to gun. I mean, it doesn't take a genius to run a QB play off tackle under speed motion, so maybe I just "figured it out" on my own, so to speak, but yeah, I watch a lot of what Murphy does.