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Making sure that I fully understand how to attack in the Double Wing  

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terrypjohnson
(@terrypjohnson)
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June 17, 2020 4:15 pm  

Good afternoon coaches!

I'm switching from the Single Wing to the Double Wing (both shotgun and under center). I want to make sure I understand absolutely everything so that I can teach it the way it should be taught.

I've heard several coaches in my league state that teams should not use shoe-to-shoe splits because "there's no room for the back to get through the hole". Obviously, I disagree with this line of thinking because my power play uses SAB blocking and there's usually a pretty good-sized hole (when the back hits it). It also made nearly impossible for teams to blitz us because there wasn't room for the LB's to get through.

What is the best way explain why we use shoe-to-shoe splits to where both players (and coaches who aren't familiar with the attack) would understand? My gut reaction is to say, "we create holes by overwhelming the defense at the point of attack and shoe-to-shoe splits help us do that by shortening the amount of distance that our pullers need to travel". However, since I'm dealing with kids no older than 10, I wanted to see if anyone had a better way to explain/teach it.

Thank you in advance for any insights...I'm really trying to be a better teacher.

Coach Terry

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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bignose
(@bignose)
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June 17, 2020 6:45 pm  

I teach 3-6 inch splits, just enough so that the kids don't step on one another. Dollar bill sized splits.

Maybe 6" from the Center to the Guards so the Guard doesn't run into the QB on his pulls.

 

The intent of Double Wing blocking schemes is to create vertical and horizontal movement (SAB) of the defense-to displace defenders, and to keep second level defenders from being able to blitz or fill.

You are also correct in saying that tighter splits shorten pulling distances.

Pullers, at the younger levels may make blocks or not, but they provide a level of interference to keep the defenders from being able to get to the ball carrier. Just gotta get in the way. You can't tackle what you can't reach. Interference blocking is an old term and a lost art.

And my thought is that if the defense compresses to stop your interior attack, there is a lot of room on either flank and not too many defenders out there.

 

You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles!


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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North Carolina
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June 17, 2020 8:18 pm  
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

I've heard several coaches in my league state that teams should not use shoe-to-shoe splits because "there's no room for the back to get through the hole".

Wedge works.  But where's the hole?  Perhaps they've heard of "blockers," but mebbe not....

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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June 17, 2020 8:21 pm  
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

my power play uses SAB blocking and there's usually a pretty good-sized hole (when the back hits it).

And you can't explain that to them?  You're running Power and the defensive line has been washed down like a windshield wiper.   Why is this a difficult concept for them to understand?

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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June 17, 2020 8:24 pm  
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

I've heard several coaches in my league state that teams should not use shoe-to-shoe splits because "there's no room for the back to get through the hole".

They must be from one of those "coaching" groups from Facebook.  Honestly, I've never found a dumber group of imbeciles in all my years...

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
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June 18, 2020 12:07 am  
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

Good afternoon coaches!

I'm switching from the Single Wing to the Double Wing (both shotgun and under center). I want to make sure I understand absolutely everything so that I can teach it the way it should be taught.

I've heard several coaches in my league state that teams should not use shoe-to-shoe splits because "there's no room for the back to get through the hole". Obviously, I disagree with this line of thinking because my power play uses SAB blocking and there's usually a pretty good-sized hole (when the back hits it). It also made nearly impossible for teams to blitz us because there wasn't room for the LB's to get through.

What is the best way explain why we use shoe-to-shoe splits to where both players (and coaches who aren't familiar with the attack) would understand? My gut reaction is to say, "we create holes by overwhelming the defense at the point of attack and shoe-to-shoe splits help us do that by shortening the amount of distance that our pullers need to travel". However, since I'm dealing with kids no older than 10, I wanted to see if anyone had a better way to explain/teach it.

Thank you in advance for any insights...I'm really trying to be a better teacher.

Coach Terry

Wasn't exactly 10Us, but I had a 12 YO player who asked, as we were coming to the line in practice, why he was going to block into the gap where the runner would go, i.e., "Won't I get in his way?"  Since we were about to get off a rep and I had no more than a few seconds to explain, I said, "It works with force."  That seemed to satisfy him.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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June 18, 2020 9:13 am  

You can down block every run play in the Double Wing (except Wedge), although we prefer to part or X block at the point of attack on ISO. But if you're seriously interested in the how-to aspect of the blocking scheme as it pertains to the Double Wing, feel free to give me a call.  Our approach is different from most.  And we block Power in 2 different ways, depending on who we have running the ball.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Majortom
(@majortom)
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June 21, 2020 10:31 am  

Normally guys that argue for bigger splits have never used the pin and pull schemes. They yell "block somebody" or teach block the guy in front of you. Pulling? really? that would mean the Oline would have to actually learn the play and know where the ball is going.  

I had that issue last year with the HC. I had to video the games to find out what exactly he was doing. I still do not know what he called the plays but I did get a look at his wrist coach, it only had the diagram of the backfield action.  And I coached the Oline!!

We were foot to foot and plenty opportunities to pull. Not really his fault since I was the 1st guy coaching with him that was not just watching his own kid for the most part. 

Tom

14th year youth coach 7-12 yr olds


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
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June 21, 2020 10:41 am  

@majortom

He was the head coach.  It was his fault.  It’s his primary job to coach his coaches and make sure they are coaching the players correctly.

 


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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June 21, 2020 10:45 am  
Posted by: @32wedge

He was the head coach.  It was his fault.  It’s his primary job to coach his coaches and make sure they are coaching the players correctly.

Absolutely.  This ^

Actually, it's more his fault than anyone else's.  If the header doesn't know scheme, then he has no business being the header.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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terrypjohnson
(@terrypjohnson)
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Posts: 255
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June 21, 2020 3:13 pm  
Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @32wedge

He was the head coach.  It was his fault.  It’s his primary job to coach his coaches and make sure they are coaching the players correctly.

Absolutely.  This ^

Actually, it's more his fault than anyone else's.  If the header doesn't know scheme, then he has no business being the header.

--Dave

I agree with this 100%, it's on the head coach to explain the system to everyone. As we say in software, if you can't explain something clearly to someone, you don't understand the topic well enough.

That's why I asked this question. Since my coaching staff typically changes from year to year, I was trying to make sure I could explain this tactic to where anyone could understand it.

It sounds like the best approach is to actually line it up and show them the "windshield wiper" effect 🙂

Thank you everybody for your responses!!

Coach Terry

 

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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June 22, 2020 11:11 am  
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

As we say in software, if you can't explain something clearly to someone, you don't understand the topic well enough.

I dunno TPJ, I think there are coaches who understand scheme well enough; they just aren't good teachers who can explain it well enough.  As someone who spent more than a decade in the public school system, I saw many teachers who knew and understood their subject matter, but their inability to explain it well to others was what made them very poor teachers.

Down blocking works.  But nothing works very well if it isn't well taught and completely comprehended.  YOU have to know what you're looking for, how to recognize it when you see it, and how to get it when you aren't seeing it.  That's one of the biggest differences between a Winner Coach and a Loser Coach.  The Loser Coach doesn't know how to get what he wants when he's not seeing it.  He also doesn't recognize what it should look like, when he is getting it.

Think of it like this: You're baking a cake, yet when the cake is ready it looks nothing like the picture on the box.  Some will blame the product itself ("Duncan Hines is awful"). Some will sit there and stare at their cake and wonder what went wrong.  ("Did I not pre-heat the oven long enough?  Did I not use enough yeast?  Was the baking pan the wrong size?"). Others will know what the issue was. ("Dang.  I forgot to grease the pan.  I slammed the oven door and the cake fell.")  When bad stuff happens, YOU need to know what YOU did wrong.  It ain't the product in the box.  It's who's baking the cake.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Prodigy
(@prodigy)
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September 9, 2020 1:46 pm  
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

What is the best way explain why we use shoe-to-shoe splits to where both players (and coaches who aren't familiar with the attack) would understand?

I'm late to this party and I'm not sure how relevant my input is going to be at this juncture, yet it might prove useful to someone else who reads this thread.

I always had heard that running tight splits in the DTDW was to ensure that your backside TE falls within the free blocking zone while making his block to fill the gap left by the BST and BSG.  The rules state:

Free-Blocking Zone and Legal Blocking: The free-blocking zone is a rectangular area established when the ball is snapped. It extends 4 yards laterally on either side of the ball, and 3 yards behind each line of scrimmage. Blocking below the waist and blocking in the back may be permitted in the free-blocking zone provided that certain conditions are met.Offensive and defensive linemen may block each other below the waist in the free-blocking zone provided that all players involved in the blocking are on their line of scrimmage.

Now, I never bothered to think of this until just now...But with 4 yards laterally on either side of the ball you've got about 12 feet minus the width of your linemen where you could still split out.  However; the larger the splits, the more distance your center and backside end have to cover to close the gap.  Furthermore, the more you split out the further the distance your backside tackle and guard have to cover in order to lead through the hole.

Could you run DTDW with massive splits?  Absolutely, anything is possible.  But, something you will learn if you have not yet figured this out is that changing one, seemingly small thing runs the risk of having negative or positive outcomes. 

Suppose you did decide to run splits, this would undoubtedly affect the rest of the timing of the play.  Your FB would have a further distance to kick out the end.  Your wingback in motion would probably need extra depth to allow the guard and tackle time to make it to the hole, your QB would probably have to take a weird and unnatural path to lead through the hole.  Meanwhile your play-side linemen are going to need some extra steps to close up those splits to prevent penetration. 

So why run zero splits?
-All of the plays are designed to run zero splits.
-Zero splits reduce defensive penetration.
-Zero splits facilitate the offensive line forming the wedge.

 

The DTDW is an absolutely terrifying system.  It reduces the effectiveness of fast defenders.  It turns defenses against itself.  How?  Traffic.  Both defensive and offensive traffic.  Draw up whatever defensive fronts you want against the DTDW and take note of how it's blocked and how it creates a huge traffic jam.  Defenders who are on the line who have a hand in the dirt at the POA are usually getting double teamed out enough to create a path for the BSG + BST to lead through the hole followed by the QB.  Sometimes this double team creates a wall that catches the linebacker.  He's got a few choices, he can backpedal to avoid getting blocked to the backside which is giving our RB extra yards of gain.  He can try to split the offensive lineman blocks, but he's still got to contend with that guard running at full spe

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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North Carolina
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September 9, 2020 2:25 pm  
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

What is the best way explain why we use shoe-to-shoe splits to where both players (and coaches who aren't familiar with the attack) would understand?

Play a game Red Rover.

Have your coaching staff stand foot to foot, hip to hip and shoulder to shoulder while having another coach 10 yards away try to run through it.  Then repeat the process with 3-foot splits and see which has greater penetration.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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Posts: 4061
September 9, 2020 2:39 pm  

@prodigy

You nailed it. One thing I'll add is that he philosophy of line play in the DW is to move bodies, whether you are wall blocking (SAB/TKO) or rules based, tight splits make the job of moving bodies a whole lot easier because you are going all in on power. The inverse of power is balance. If you try to favor power with wide splits, it's easy to get beat . . . badly. In our wide splits philosophy, we are not trying to move bodies, so we go all in on balance.

BTW, "Toss" from mega splits is going in this week, as soon as the snow melts. 101 degrees on Monday, 30 degrees on Tuesday. 3" on the ground in my back yard today.

DW purists can relax. We are not claiming this to be DW from wide splits. We're just running some DW-type backfield actions. In my brain, it should work just like Beast blast.

 

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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