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Making sure that I fully understand how to attack in the Double Wing

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mahonz
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co

@prodigy

You nailed it. One thing I'll add is that he philosophy of line play in the DW is to move bodies, whether you are wall blocking (SAB/TKO) or rules based, tight splits make the job of moving bodies a whole lot easier because you are going all in on power. The inverse of power is balance. If you try to favor power with wide splits, it's easy to get beat . . . badly. In our wide splits philosophy, we are not trying to move bodies, so we go all in on balance.

BTW, "Toss" from mega splits is going in this week, as soon as the snow melts. 101 degrees on Monday, 30 degrees on Tuesday. 3" on the ground in my back yard today.

DW purists can relax. We are not claiming this to be DW from wide splits. We're just running some DW-type backfield actions. In my brain, it should work just like Beast blast.

 

Just be safe and call it I wing. 😎 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Prodigy
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I think one of the biggest mistakes that young (inexperienced) head coaches make is they mistakenly think that they need to draw up their own plays or alter or modify existing plays or ways of doing things.  I suspect that it is closely tied to their own inexperience and ego.

I had an unhealthy obsession with the single wing spinner series.  There was a guy I think his name was Tom Lewis who had a "triple spinner" offense.  I tried to take his plays and tweak them to work within the Cisar Single Wing.  It never worked out right.  I was narrowly focused on the backfield action, without bothering to consider how everything else fits together.

Many years later, I became a little obsessed with shoe-horning a Wing T series into the double wing...it all looked really great on paper, it looked halfway decent on grass even...but in hindsight it was pretty much a waste of time and effort.  Why?  Because it didn't do anything special that our base package wasn't already doing.  I thought having multiple backs meshing perfectly and adding all of this confusion to who had the ball would just be the coolest thing ever...it wasn't.  It was pointless.

I am by no means a DW purist.  I definitely favor the conventional tried-and-true DTDW because we found a lot of success with it...so if you're running ultra wide splits with something that looks like double wing backfield action, I don't care.  I don't know why anyone would care actually.  Do what works for you.

 

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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Prodigy
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Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

What is the best way explain why we use shoe-to-shoe splits to where both players (and coaches who aren't familiar with the attack) would understand?

Play a game Red Rover.

Have your coaching staff stand foot to foot, hip to hip and shoulder to shoulder while having another coach 10 yards away try to run through it.  Then repeat the process with 3-foot splits and see which has greater penetration.

--Dave

Actually there are some other benefits to running foot to foot splits that I failed to mention.  Another one is consistency.  It's much easier to get an offensive line that is straight running foot-to-foot splits than it is to get a bunch of 8-11 year olds perfectly aligned when they've got gaps between them. 

I might add for any coach utilizing a foot-to-foot / zero split line.  Emphasize straight toes.  If you have kids ducking their feet out, it's going to curve your line.
I will also add that in some cases, it may become necessary to give your guards more depth.  We started with our guards putting their toes on the heels of the center and we ended up running into some problems because our guards were pulling at a 90 and the size of these kids, coupled with the center not getting off of the ball as quickly as they were, created some collisions.  As such, we put our guards toes about 6 inches off of the heel of the center and that ended up being optimal.

We ran TKO and another important thing with this is teamwork and maintaining that wall.  We rep'd it so much that troubleshooting problems was pretty easy.  Penetration occurred when our TKO guys took grudges against particular defenders, this allowed defenders to split linemen.

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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terrypjohnson
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Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

What is the best way explain why we use shoe-to-shoe splits to where both players (and coaches who aren't familiar with the attack) would understand?

Play a game Red Rover.

Have your coaching staff stand foot to foot, hip to hip and shoulder to shoulder while having another coach 10 yards away try to run through it.  Then repeat the process with 3-foot splits and see which has greater penetration.

--Dave

Stealing this!! Thank you @CoachDP!!

 

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @prodigy

Emphasize straight toes.  If you have kids ducking their feet out, it's going to curve your line.

Interesting. Please explain.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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jtrent64
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co

BTW, "Toss" from mega splits is going in this week.

Please let me know how you are doing this? Thanks!


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @jtrent64
Posted by: @gumby_in_co

BTW, "Toss" from mega splits is going in this week.

Please let me know how you are doing this? Thanks!

We run it from our "ACE" formation:

 

X                G  C  G  T  T  Y

              R      Q                 L

                      S

Q is under center. Not sure if I have the WBs names right. I just know RIP and LIZ, but whatever.

If it were 100% up to me (it never is):

RG pulls and kicks first to show. Everyone else on the line blocks down. 

S follows Y's tail and blocks inside out, first to show after the kick.

L blocks first backer inside.

Q opens left and tosses, continues around and follows S, blocking first to show after S.

R takes an orbit path on "hit", (no motion), secures the toss and runs tight to Y's butt.

X goes hunting for backside pursuers.

 

Based on Mahonz and Lonnie's tendencies, the following could happen:

No pull from the RG. S kicks instead. If that's the case, O-line blocks Inside Gap, Man On, Linebacker and C blocks MOMA.

Q tosses and boots to the weak side

 

This post was modified 11 months ago by gumby_in_co

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Prodigy
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @prodigy

Emphasize straight toes.  If you have kids ducking their feet out, it's going to curve your line.

Interesting. Please explain.

@gumby_in_co

This applies to zero splits...its less exciting than you might think.    Imagine if I’m the center facing the end zone and my feet are like this

 

| |. 

and you line up to my right by putting your left foot on my right heel.  If you keep your toes straight and the tackle lines up to your right keeping his toes straight we should end up with a perfectly straight offensive line.  

now imagine if I’m the center and I put my feet like this

\ /

 

and you line up with your feet the same and the tackle and so on...your line will look like an arc and actually you can be so good at being so bad that you pull a flag because you do not have 7 men on the line...I’ve seen it happen.  

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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gumby_in_co
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@prodigy

I get it and I think it explains a battle that I tried to fight last season. I was amazed on a daily basis of our guys' complete lack of spatial awareness when it came to their feet. Even with bigger splits, maybe parallel feet would help them see that one foot is clearly 8" further back than the other.

This year, it doesn't seem to be a problem. I missed the first 3 weeks and when I finally showed up, the line looked like they picked up where they left off last season.

 

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Prodigy
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Cisar says in his book “no ballerinas. We aren’t ballerinas we are football players.”  Feet go straight.

we had a lot of reps getting lined up quick.  We’d run a play and when it was whistled dead, the countdown started.  10, 9, 8, 7, 6....everyone finds the ball, gets lined up and ready to run the next play before we get to zero.  Stolen from usmc boot camp.  

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co
 

tight splits make the job of moving bodies a whole lot easier because you are going all in on power.

We're just running some DW-type backfield actions. In my brain, it should work just like Beast blast.

Or, you could run THE Double Wing.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
 

tight splits make the job of moving bodies a whole lot easier because you are going all in on power.

We're just running some DW-type backfield actions. In my brain, it should work just like Beast blast.

Or, you could run THE Double Wing.

--Dave

You nailed it. One thing I'll add is that he philosophy of line play in the DW is to move bodies, whether you are wall blocking (SAB/TKO) or rules based, tight splits make the job of moving bodies a whole lot easier because you are going all in on power. The inverse of power is balance. If you try to favor power with wide splits, it's easy to get beat . . . badly. In our wide splits philosophy, we are not trying to move bodies, so we go all in on balance.

 

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @prodigy

I think one of the biggest mistakes that young (inexperienced) head coaches make is they mistakenly think that they need to draw up their own plays or alter or modify existing plays or ways of doing things.  I suspect that it is closely tied to their own inexperience and ego.

--It's both.  Their inexperience tells them they they don't need a blocking system ("Why use a system?  All they have to do is block somebody.") So their focus is on backfield action, and since any sort of power running doesn't really work without a blocking system, they end up pitching it to their fast kid who just runs for his life.    Next, they'll do a "fast kid running for his life" from I-Formation and then from Wishbone, to the right and to the left and claiming that's 4 different plays.  Run that set for their Tailback and the same set for their QB and Coach is claiming it's 8 plays in his "playbook" (when it's actually the same lousy play).  Before you know it, Coach is claiming more than a hundred "plays" in his "playbook" with 7-year-olds. That's ego.  If he was teaching "real" plays, there's no way he has 125 plays in his "playbook" because 5-8 real plays (to teach and to rep) require too much time to be good at.

in hindsight it was pretty much a waste of time and effort.  Why?  Because it didn't do anything special that our base package wasn't already doing. 

--Which is one reason I switched to the Double Wing full-time.

Do what works for you.

--I would agree, but with this caveat.  In youth football the majority of the teams on the schedule simply aren't very good.  And despite having a "playbook" of 125 plays (all of which include some sort of variation of the sweep, a quarterback sneak, and a pass play) one can trounce the majority of those teams even with no blocking system, using their "fast kid running for his life" play.  So that approach "works."  But then they play against a team with either more talent or better coaching (or both) and their "success" vanishes.  It's tough to have unchallenged success, especially when your fundamentals are poor and then face someone who knows what they're doing.  Coaches usually aren't ready for it and players never are.

--Dave

 

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @prodigy

Emphasize straight toes.  If you have kids ducking their feet out, it's going to curve your line.

--Exactly.  Toes should be pointing to the end zone.

I will also add that in some cases, it may become necessary to give your guards more depth.  We started with our guards putting their toes on the heels of the center and we ended up running into some problems because our guards were pulling at a 90 and the size of these kids, coupled with the center not getting off of the ball as quickly as they were, created some collisions.  As such, we put our guards toes about 6 inches off of the heel of the center and that ended up being optimal.

--In a 3-point stance, our Guards down hand (the inside one) always touched the outside of the heel of the Center.  This assured us that we had plenty of room to pull.

We ran TKO and another important thing with this is teamwork and maintaining that wall.  We rep'd it so much that troubleshooting problems was pretty easy.  Penetration occurred when our TKO guys took grudges against particular defenders, this allowed defenders to split linemen.

--And THAT is the key to angle blocking and why I was bad at teaching it for quite a while.  If there was a gap in the defensive line, our o-lineman was on his way to the 2nd level because he had no Level 1 defender and this was leaving a hole in the wall.  This is when we developed our Octagon-approach to blocking.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Prodigy
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@coachdp I agree with your statements on inexperience.  I suppose when we step back from it, the inexperienced coach is not much better than a fan of professional football.  The focus and emphasis is on the backfield action, the QB the RB's the receivers.  There's very little focus on what the line is doing compared to what the backs are doing.  It's a little humorous because in my first year as an assistant, the head coach spent the majority of the practice with the backs while the offensive line stood in formation, kicking dirt.

I also agree that many teams aren't very good (but they find success and mistakenly THINK they are doing well).

I've seen "fast kid left, fast kid right" far too many times.  I coached against a team where Ty Law coached...and they had some tremendous athletes.  They had one player who they'd get the ball to and he would actually back up, towards his own end zone, to create space and lanes.  VERY UNSOUND.  He would do this and sucker defenders in and beat them with his agility.  I watched entire teams over penetrate, over pursue and get burned by this kid.  What's particularly interesting about this is that it's fairly hard to prepare for situations like this.  We spent an entire week going over how dangerous this player was and his modus operandi.  The very first time he got the ball, he burned my FB/OLB badly.  OLB seen the kill shot, went for it and failed to wrap him up.  I can see it in my minds eye but I can't see what the other 10 players were doing and how the kid managed to take it to the house...but he did.
I remember telling the team something to the effect of "relax.  We prepared for this, we expected it.  We practiced this.  Be controlled.  Be concise."  The next time Mr. Athlete got the ball, my OLB stalked him.  I've got film on it somewhere, it's actually humorous when you compare their first encounter and their second.  The first time my OLB flies, I think he leaves his feet with his arms wide to grab this kid and he moves, leaving the OLB to land belly down in the grass.  The second time the OLB creeps, a couple of steps at a time, adjusting to the RB's moves, until eventually the RB is face to face with the OLB who simply wraps him up very non-violently for the stop. 🤣  Fast Kid left / right worked once in that game and not again.

 

 

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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