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Pulling Both Guards on Power  

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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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North Carolina
High School
October 24, 2018 12:20 pm  

I can't just picture it now. RB: Coach, what hole do I run through? DP: Hole? Hole?! We don't run through holes!!!

That's pretty much how it's stated.  We start by running half-play.  I get everyone on offense in their position, except for my ball-carrier.  I ask him if he sees a hole.  He says, "No."  I ask, "Are you sure?"  He says "I'm sure."  I tell him to look carefully and think about it before he answers.  He finally says, "Coach, I'm just not seeing a hole."  And I reply, "You're absolutely right.  There isn't one."

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Mcloud3
(@mcloud3)
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Posts: 21
October 24, 2018 2:02 pm  

Did it worry you so much that it kept you from even giving it a try?

Backside DEs shouldn't be a problem if your play hits fast enough.  In running the DW for more than a decade at youth, middle school and high school, I can count on one hand the number of times we've been pulled down by a BSDE.  Besides, even if that were an issue that gives you Fullback Counter Trap, Wingback Counter, Yo-Yo Counter.  Or widen him out by going unbalanced on the backside.  The defense shifts over and since you still pull 2, have a FB, QB, and PSWB you should have a numbers advantage while formationing the BSDE out of the play.  In addition, if you don't use GaTE everytime, but only occasionally, the BSDE never knows when your BSTE will be there and when he won't.  Keep him guessing and you may never see him.  Any play run the same way, every time gets harder because of defensive adjustments and familiarity.

--Dave

This is more "in theory" I suppose.  But if it works in practice that's great.  There is a kid that would be a great puller that I want to keep at TE for his hands.


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Mcloud3
(@mcloud3)
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October 24, 2018 2:04 pm  

We only run Power O  (O standing for Offside Guard ) And in my opinion it cleans up the play up and you get just as much bang for your buck. This is an intersting conversation as the poster is referring to scheme that we would call G.O. G reprensenting onside Guard and i already explained the  O .  So im confused thou what scheme are u running DTDW or Wishbone ? What i can tell you Is WT can blocking can work with tight splits not no splits for a variety of reasons. I havent read whole thread so forgive me if im being redundent but interested in hearing what your trying to do over all with your base.

Running wishbone with Wing T concepts.  I am studying the Double Wing to put in during the offseason.  So I guess you could say I am solving problems that I don't have yet.  LOL


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Mcloud3
(@mcloud3)
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October 24, 2018 3:14 pm  

Confirmed just today that I'll be head coaching next year.  I have been the Oline coach till now.  So I've been playing with this stuff a while.  The backfield has never been up to me though.


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CoachCalande
(@www-coachcalande-com)
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Posts: 7059
October 24, 2018 3:29 pm  

Long time lurker.  Not much of a poster.

I have searched this and come up empty so I apologize if it has been covered.

Has anyone ever tried pulling both Guards instead of backside Guard and Tackle?  I ask because I'd really like to be balanced and not have to flip my line.  I was thinking I'd set back the Guards a little and really encourage the tackles to squeeze in on their splits. 

The cons off the top of my head would be that the playside tackle now also has a void to fill, so probably not getting a double team with the T and TE playside.  Also afraid it may hang my Center out to dry a little bit and he isn't the biggest kid around.

Pros - Balanced as I said before so playcalling is simplified.  Also might hit a little quicker, which I guess could also be a Con depending upon the timing of it all.  The backside Guard isn't the lead puller anymore so if he's held up slightly in traffic it doesn't shut them both down.  Playside Guard might have a better angle on a DE in a 6 technique than the FB and he could even double with the FB if the DE is a stud.

What are your thoughts?  Anyone tried it and if so what were your results?

Have pulled both guards and also bs tackle in that same play. We call it “smash” and have playside guard kick out, bs g and t lead along with fb and QB.

MOJO    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtcRmKnRcsAGo to WWW.COACHCALANDE.COM  for Double Wing DVDs, Playbook, Drills Manuals, Practice footage and emagazines. Ask me about our new 38 special dvds!


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blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
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October 24, 2018 4:43 pm  

What if you want to run "Power Right" to more than one hole?

"Power Right" means everyone has to memorize not only what "Power Right" means, but what their responsibilities are.  Which is fine, if their responsibilities never change on that play.  We change everything from formation/motion/no-motion/direction of motion/depth and speed of motion/handoff/toss/and blocking scheme.  So we teach a language.  Once our players have learned that language, we can add plays easily as well as make new adjustments.  What is "Power Right" for some teams could be "Lee 36 Toss Larry," or "Loose Right  Ray-O  36  Larry GATE," for us.  We could call "Power Right" 13 different ways and never run it the same way twice.  We need the language.

--Dave

Makes sense

I think I have a weird form of PTSD from coaching under a guy who insisted on a very wordy, redundant, and confusing system that made it pretty much impossible to just spit the plays out.  We had a bunch of weird issues where we'd have a very long play call that was almost word for word the same as another one, but actually telling the players to execute a very different play.  We'd have players going the wrong way all the time because he thought just calling stuff "12" or "Veer Right" was "too confusing for the kids" and the more words he could pack in there that meant the same thing was better because it gave them multiple reminders.

Ever since then I've really made a big deal about pruning calls down as much as possible, whenever possible.


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Mcloud3
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October 24, 2018 5:20 pm  

Agree.  I have gotten too many blank stares over plays we've been working for months to trust memories.  Hell I even catch myself giving the wrong formation tag sometimes and we only have two.

I still like the numbers somewhat though.  We've  never blocked "holes" but have used the numbers to give coordinates to the back.  When this group was real little we just lined them up and blocked GOD and looked where we were getting double teams.  Lol


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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North Carolina
High School
October 24, 2018 5:46 pm  

Ever since then I've really made a big deal about pruning calls down as much as possible, whenever possible.

I hear you.  And we're as pared-down as I can make it, but the QB has a wrist coach and he can read it and each player just listens for his part.

Formation could be Loose, Nasty, Tackle Over, End Over, Bone, I, Beast or Double Tight.

Motion could be the Left or Right Wing going in motion.  "Lee" or "Ray" is the tag here.

No-motion is just that.  If we're not running motion, there is no "Lee" or "Ray" tag.

Direction of motion changes if we send a Back running to the sideline.  That would be "Lee-O" or "Ray-O" for "opposite" motion.

Depth  of motion would be an "Orbit" call when we want the Wing to motion deeper.  That would be "Lee-Orbit" or "Ray-Orbit."

Speed of motion (faster) would be "Lee-Jet" or "Ray-Jet."

Handoff means a reverse pivot for the QB.

Toss means the QB will pitch it.

Blocking scheme could be Wedge, Trap, Blast, Power, Reach or Hinge.  Swap, Double, Kick or X is a blocking responsibility.

So we teach a language.

And we need a "hole number" to give a "zip code" of where we want to run the ball to.

"Power Right" would tell my guys nothing.

"Nasty Right, Lee-O, 43 Toss,  Blast, Roger Double" means that our Tight End is gapped on the Right (Nasty Right), our Left Wingback is going in motion to the sideline (Lee-Opposite), the QB is pitching the ball (Toss) to the Right Wingback (4-Back) who is heading to the B-Gap on the left (3-hole).  We will block Blast (Big-on-Big) on playside and pull our Right Guard (Roger) and Right Tackle (Roger) and the Fullback and QB are double-teaming (Double) on the kick-out.  Wordy?  Yes, very.  How do we teach it?  We teach the terms, which are as descriptive as I know to make them and the QB reads it off his wrist.  The example I provided shows how wordy it can be; but most of the time, we're just running "Lee, 36 Toss, Roger."  There is no Tag for "Double Tight", as that is the default.  There is no call for the cadence, unless we change the snap count or go no-play.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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North Carolina
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October 24, 2018 5:51 pm  

I even catch myself giving the wrong formation tag sometimes and we only have two.

That would be me, but I read it off the sheet.  Even at practice.  Especially at practice.  In the game I just say, "17."

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
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Posts: 17457
North Carolina
High School
October 24, 2018 5:54 pm  

This is more "in theory" I suppose.

--"Theory?"  No, I practice what I preach.

But if it works in practice that's great.

--Why would I suggest something I haven't done?

There is a kid that would be a great puller that I want to keep at TE for his hands.

--That makes him ideal for GaTE.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Mcloud3
(@mcloud3)
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October 24, 2018 7:02 pm  

Sorry coach the "theory" I was referring to was my theory that a DE might follow the pulling TE.  Im saying if youre saying that doesnt happen in the real world thats great because i can really use that. 

So really the Central theme here is that we have options for pullers.  One G.  Two Gs.  G &T.  G&TE.  I've pulled just a tackle before too.  There just might be certain adjustments to be made with what you choose. 


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PSLCOACHROB
(@pslcoachrob)
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October 25, 2018 3:43 am  

I have been preaching dumbing play calls here for years. Man it frustrates me to hear people muddy stuff up. Especially in the dw. Most guys run the dw from mostly one formation. Most guys have wb motion in every play. So if you run dtdw 35 power with motion every time and you are in drdw 90% of the time why bother calling the motion or the formation. We only called the formation when it changed. So we ran "power right". If we ran tackle over we ran "over power right". Wing on was....you guessed it "wing on power right".


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Dimson
(@dimson)
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October 25, 2018 4:51 am  

I have been preaching dumbing play calls here for years. Man it frustrates me to hear people muddy stuff up. Especially in the dw. Most guys run the dw from mostly one formation. Most guys have wb motion in every play. So if you run dtdw 35 power with motion every time and you are in drdw 90% of the time why bother calling the motion or the formation. We only called the formation when it changed. So we ran "power right". If we ran tackle over we ran "over power right". Wing on was....you guessed it "wing on power right".

How did you teach the backs where to run on power if you don't use hole numbers? I prefer your method btw.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17457
North Carolina
High School
October 25, 2018 6:18 am  

How did you teach the backs where to run on power if you don't use hole numbers? I prefer your method btw.

I'd imagine because they were running to areas (correct me if I'm wrong, Rob).  We specify "hole" (even though we aren't looking to create a hole) because it tells our ball-carrier what options we are giving him and what he's to look for.  If we are running to the D-Gap, he has no options.  He is to only run the ball outside of the Tight End.  If we are running to the C-Gap, he has 3 options: bounce, straight or cutback.  If we are running to the B-Gap, he has 2 options, straight or cutback.  So for us, there's not a hole (although we do manage to create them from time to time).  We want it to look like 7 people in one section of a revolving door.  Opponents can see us through the glass, but they can't get to the ball-carrier.  (At least, not until he's gained the minimum amount of yardage.)

As to what the ball-carrier's to look for, Backs by their very nature look for openings.  It's hard for them to tell what hole to jump into when there is no hole.  So we specify odd numbers on the left and even numbers on the right.  We don't want our Backs searching for a gap that doesn't exist.  We do want to tell all of our players the location of where we want you to end up, so that we can escort our ball-carrier through the masses.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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COCoachKC
(@cocoachkc)
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Posts: 352
Colorado
Retired
October 25, 2018 7:21 am  

Backside DEs shouldn't be a problem if your play hits fast enough. 

Dave,

For the years I didn't coach with Larry, some of my assistant coaches always had issues with us not blocking the BSDE.  In fact, I had some instruct the TE to fan the BSDE instead of shoeshining or scooping (we went away from the shoeshine when we started getting flagged for unnecessary roughness).  You know exactly what kind of issues that caused!

In my experience, the following were root causes of our motion back getting caught by a BSDE:
    * Motion back too slow to the hole
    * Center not firing off and forcing the pulling G and T to take a deeper path
    * Pulling G not scraping paint and getting too deep

Rather than changing how we blocked the play, we fixed the root causes.  Here are some of the methods Larry and I used:
    * Motion back too slow to the hole -- Towel drill!  We would put a towel in the back of the pants of our pulling T.  The motion back was instructed to pull the towel.  The pulling G and T were charged with getting into the hole right now and to their blocks BEFORE the towel was pulled.  This drill accomplished the following: the motion back's quickness to the LOS, tight pulls by the G and T into the funnel.  On other benefit was the improved vision of the motion backs.  They would place their hand on the small of the back of the pulling T.  When they did that, their eyes were up looking for a seam.

    * Center not firing off and forcing the pulling G and T to take a deeper path -- We ran what we called the Strong Side Drill.  This emphasis of this drill was to get the strong side to work together with the center playing the part of the hinge and anchor of the "wall."  If he didn't step down right now, the wall failed.

    * Pulling G not scraping paint and getting too deep -- Tunnel (or funnel) drill.  This drill was for the pulling G and T.  This drill emphasized: scraping paint, speed to the hole, locating an ugly jersey to block.  With the younger kids, we had them use a cross-over step (lead with the outside foot).  This forced them to stay tight to the center (hinge of the wall) and to keep their shoulders square and their head looking downfield for their block.

We spent A LOT of time repping these details.  We were even able to pull our BSG and T WITHOUT a BSTE.  We ran a SPLIT package where we replaced the BSTE with a WR (kid couldn't/wouldn't block but could run routes and catch the football).  I don't ever remember our motion back getting caught by the BSDE when we ran SPLIT.  I do remember some huge runs off counter, however.

Too often us coaches look to make scheme changes rather that fix the root causes of our problems.

Kent


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