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Coach Kyle
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December 26, 2020 8:16 pm  

What is the best double wing substitution strategy? I coach in an area where football is really popular, and that means I may need to make between 10 to 12 subs per game. How would you do that with the double wing?

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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CoachDP
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December 26, 2020 10:26 pm  

Substitutions, as they pertain to Minimum Play Rules are a math question.  How many players on your roster/how many plays each player requires/how many plays occur in a game = the result.  Once you know that, you'll have your answer.  For instance, when I coached youth ball, we received an average of only 24 offensive plays per game (once we hit Slaughter we weren't allowed to be on offense for the rest of the game).  My MPR count was 6/8/10 plays per player, depending on the size on my roster.  Usually, our MPR was 8.  That meant I could only go 2-deep at any offensive position, because sometimes we didn't even get 24 plays before reaching Slaughter.  We also had to have the MPR fulfilled by the end of the 3rd Quarter.  If you don't know the average number of plays you get in a game, it is impossible to accurately predict how deep you can go at each position.  

There is no "best Double Wing substitution strategy."  You want your best 11 on the field at all times.  Sometimes I was deeper with Linemen, sometimes I was deeper with Backs.  We often rotated our starting Backs with our 2nd-Group linemen and our 2nd-Group backs with our 1st-Group linemen.  Every starter has to have a sub because of the threat of injury.  I usually had 2 complete groups of offensive linemen, so 14 linemen wasn't a hindrance.  It was a luxury.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
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December 27, 2020 12:30 pm  

Double wing is tricky every player has a role that important, no hiding.  That said I've seen folks mass sub and run a wedge series. 

I never sub the line if I can help it, if I do I sub the TE position.  The backfield you can sub in as needed . 

 

Hope this helps

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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Lunchbox
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December 27, 2020 12:53 pm  

I would have a TE run the play in every play, once we had 3 rotating right there. But thats 2 for sure. Its also an important job your giving let them know that.

I tried to never sub the line if i did swap it was usaully the LT as we never pulled T's


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Coach Kyle
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December 27, 2020 2:15 pm  
Posted by: @bucksweep58

Double wing is tricky every player has a role that important, no hiding.  That said I've seen folks mass sub and run a wedge series. 

I never sub the line if I can help it, if I do I sub the TE position.  The backfield you can sub in as needed . 

 

Hope this helps

Posted by: @lunchbox

I would have a TE run the play in every play, once we had 3 rotating right there. But thats 2 for sure. Its also an important job your giving let them know that.

I tried to never sub the line if i did swap it was usaully the LT as we never pulled T's

It's very interesting that people don't sub the line or that they sub the TE. The TE has the most important block in the offense. Are you subbing the backside TE?

 

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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ZACH
 ZACH
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December 27, 2020 3:33 pm  
Posted by: @coach-kyle
Posted by: @bucksweep58

Double wing is tricky every player has a role that important, no hiding.  That said I've seen folks mass sub and run a wedge series. 

I never sub the line if I can help it, if I do I sub the TE position.  The backfield you can sub in as needed . 

 

Hope this helps

Posted by: @lunchbox

I would have a TE run the play in every play, once we had 3 rotating right there. But thats 2 for sure. Its also an important job your giving let them know that.

I tried to never sub the line if i did swap it was usaully the LT as we never pulled T's

It's very interesting that people don't sub the line or that they sub the TE. The TE has the most important block in the offense. Are you subbing the backside TE?

 

It's been a long time since I've ran dw.  We subbed in the ends in rotation. They were all good blockers and weren't mpps but they weren't receivers if we wanted to pass let's say. 

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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Coach Kyle
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December 27, 2020 3:56 pm  

@coachdp

 

I estimate about 40 plays total per half, and each kid must get 5 plays per half. With 30 kids, that's 150 plays total. If there are 40 plays in a half, that's 440 potential slots. 

Typically at least 17 kids start. That's 5 kids going both ways. This leaves 13 kids who need spots. That's 65 plays. 

I anticipate that by running double wing you'll control the clock more, so 24 plays sounds like a reasonable assumption, which leaves a total of 264 spots on offense. If 65 of those are taken up by MPP, then that's 25% of the offense roughly. 

I think the conclusion there is that if you need to sub on defense too. If you only had to sub in 7 of the 13 kids, then it's much easier. 13% of the time.

 

 

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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Coach Kyle
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December 27, 2020 3:59 pm  

@bucksweep58

How did you sub then?

 

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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CoachDP
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December 27, 2020 5:39 pm  
Posted by: @coach-kyle

I estimate about 40 plays total per half,

--20 offensive and 20 defensive?

and each kid must get 5 plays per half.

--That's 15 plays for a starter and 5 plays for a sub (worst case scenario).

With 30 kids, that's 150 plays total. If there are 40 plays in a half, that's 440 potential slots. 

--With 30 players, you'll still have to decide how many are offense-only, defense-only and which are both ways.

Typically at least 17 kids start. That's 5 kids going both ways. This leaves 13 kids who need spots. That's 65 plays. 

--Okay, 17 starters with 5 of them O/D.  13 players remaining.  While their skillset (or lack thereof) would dictate where they should go, I would like at least 6 for a 2nd unit o-line.  (My backup Center is usually a starting Guard or Tackle; someone who has been in the game, instead of someone coming in cold off the bench.). That leaves 7.  If 3 of them go in my backfield, then I can put the remaining 4 on defense.  Again, it's all conjecture because you don't know their skillsets YET.

I anticipate that by running double wing you'll control the clock more, so 24 plays sounds like a reasonable assumption, which leaves a total of 264 spots on offense. If 65 of those are taken up by MPP, then that's 25% of the offense roughly. 

--While you'll control the clock, it leaves less time (plays) for your defense.  But a 5-play MPR-defense can still be accomplished in one half of football.

--Dave

 

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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ZACH
 ZACH
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December 27, 2020 6:00 pm  
Posted by: @coach-kyle

@bucksweep58

How did you sub then?

 

We subbed them like dcwt split ends, before I found this sight

 

---1-0-0-#-0-0-2

 

Subs I'm order: 3,4,5,6

Odds went on left side, even on right

The sub ran the play into the huddle and who he replaced sent to the sideline. 

 

Play 1

---1-0-0-#-0-0-2

Play 2

---3-0-0-#-0-0-2

Play 3

---3-0-0-#-0-0-4

This happened all game no matter what.  We subbed backs as needed.

 

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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Coach Kyle
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December 27, 2020 7:29 pm  

@coachdp

All good points. The other thing is that while I anticipate getting 15ish plays defense and 25ish plays offense, that doesn't mean it will go that way. If turn overs happen, we may need to sub in other ways. So it's clearly a good idea to have a balance between offense and defense, and if we fall behind we may want to do heavy subbing on defense.

I'm thinking perhaps the most tactical way to do this is to have a sub coach send in kids at a steady pace. Hypothetically, if a sub coach sent in 2 kids every single play, they would cycle through 12 kids in 30 plays. Then in big moments you would even have the luxury of calling on your A team to step in. Plus, they could sub in the 2nd string kids last. In other words, the kids who were most likely to play would go in last. This would make it possible to always have kids cycling in while keeping your best 9 on the field. The final several plays of each half you would have all 11. 

 

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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Seth54
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December 27, 2020 10:28 pm  

Not a DW guy, but my teams have employed a sub coach. Personally, I have used my DL as a place to hide a kid and get him snaps. Usually every 2 snaps a kid is running in and rotating through one of the three DL spots. On offense I don’t like to sub my OL much, unless I have kids who are similar. My logic is that I’d rather have a kid blow a play on D and give up a TD versus a kid blow a block and get someone killed. 

Now I do know coaches who flip the OL to the strength of the formation, and they rotate kids through at Weakside TE. That’s just not how I run my offense. 


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gumby_in_co
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December 28, 2020 12:14 pm  

With 30 players, I'm going to platoon it.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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