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Geoketc
(@geoketc)
Copper
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 25
December 3, 2019 3:41 am  

Ahh youre getting tackled from the backside more than at poa when you run power?

- YES, backside kills us

Might be a technical issue more than alignment issue.

Bignose and company can probably elaborate more on this.


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
Silver Moderator
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 626
Virginia
Middle School
Only / Head Coach
December 3, 2019 3:50 am  

- YES, backside kills us

I get the same issues.  9, 10, 11 men 3 yards or less from the line of scrimmage.  I call SOLID which is simply Power without the backside pullers.  Leave them home to prevent penetration. 

With that many defenders on the line, you don't need backside pullers.  Wash everyone down with your O-Line, kick with your fullback, send the WB around to the safety, lead the QB through to the corner and you are off to the races.


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bignose
(@bignose)
Silver
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 915
December 3, 2019 4:22 am  

Back side leakage is a problem with the over loaded front and attacking fronts.

First thought: keep the backside tackle home and have him cut the 3 tech to his inside. After trying to get the tackle to pull for years (our motion was pretty fast) we just decided that pulling him would slow us down, and we were better off keeping him back side to seal.

The Center may struggle to get the A-gap defender cut, so a possible solution is to have the tackle cut all the way down (doable but tough) and have the back side TE cut all the way down to the 3 tech.

If the backside DE is catching you you could possibly use a "pick" call, which has the QB toss and then block back side.

Blast is the play to go to when the defense doesn't put a down lineman on the play side tackle. You can block it solid as mentioned above. The video was great example of the how this play should look. At the POA, QB, Guard, FB, and Wing lead thru. That is a lot of mass at the POA.

You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles!


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17055
North Carolina
High School
December 3, 2019 5:23 am  

The biggest problem is when the offside guard and tackle pull, the defense is coming in too clean and too fast from where the guard and tackle just vacated.

Then this really isn't a "What play should I run?" question; it's a "How do I fix our execution?" question.

If you are having backside leakage via the pullers, there are several issues that need to be looked at:

1) Generally, the slower the pull, the slower it is for those to close the gap quickly.  Recessing your linemen as far off the line of scrimmage as possible, can remedy this for 2 reasons:

A) The fillers don't have to fill for the pullers.  They only have to fill for the space in front of the pullers.  Too often, pullers are crowding the line of scrimmage, and the fillers are waiting for the pullers to leave so that they can fill the gap made by pulling.  By recessing the linemen off the LOS as deeply as possible, the fillers can fill faster at 2 and 10 o'clock (moving at a forward) angle, instead of at a slower 3 and 9 o'clock (moving at a horizontal) angle.  Which brings me to my next suggestion:

B) Fillers often WAIT until the pullers have vacated to begin their fill.  There can be no wait.  The snapping of the ball usually has the following sequence:

a) Center snaps ball, THEN
b) Guard begins to pull, THEN
c) Tackle begins to pull, THEN
d) End begins to fill.

By the time you get to "d," it's too late.  Waaay too late.  The pull and the fill HAVE to happen at the SAME time and both should happen DURING the snap; not AFTER.  Even teams that don't have a problem with filling for pulls, are usually too slow in this regard.  Whenever I watch video of teams that have problems with the pull (and thus, the fill), I usually see the defensive line coming across the LOS while the offensive line is still in their 3-point stance.  This should NEVER happen.  The offensive line has the built-in advantage of not only knowing the snap count, but also the direction of the play.  Mobility drills (foot fire) are your friends here.

My o-lines are recessed so deeply, the Guard's down hand is touching the Center's heel.  That's deep.  That gives us a 45-degree "running" pull, instead of a 90-degree "horizontal" pull.

2) Using a 2-point stance will get you where you want to go even faster, but you lose the depth that a 3-point stance will give because the player's body is more under his head in a 2-point, while the player's head is more in front of his body in a 3-point.  Since the G/T/E's heads have to be even with the Center's hip, that means that a player in a 3-point can have greater depth from the LOS and that a player in a 2-point will be closer to the LOS. 

3) If your pulling Guard and Tackle create too large of a backside hole and your Superman/shoeshine/scramble block isn't closing it, then you also have to look at how your Center is blocking.  If he blocks "away," then his block is filling for the pulling Guard.  That means your TE only has to fill the gap left by the pulling Tackle. 

4) If your Center isn't making a consistent backside block for the pulling Guard, you need to fix that.  Most Centers don't get the amount of footwork drills needed to be effective at making cut-off blocks.  My Centers get 50 snaps with left footwork, 50 snaps with right footwork and 50 snaps with base footwork at every practice.  They just don't snap the ball, over and over.  Ball snap repetition without footwork teaches your Center to keep his feet glued to the ground and be a statue.  150 snaps per day, with footwork can be grueling.  But that's as it should be because of what the job entails.

5) Consider GaTE.  A Guard and Tight End pull will allow you to fill for the pulling Guard with your Center, while the Tackle doesn't to fill for anyone.  And any defender coming through the spot vacated by the pulling TE should not be able to make a play in your backfield.  If they do, then your play itself is too slow.  In addition, he's probably anticipating your cadence, which is solved by a slew of hardcount options.  Counter is also a fun way to handle him.

6) Consider unbalanced.  In an unbalanced set, you have effectively "pre-pulled" your backside Tackle, meaning that you only need to pull your backside Guard, and he should be easily filled for by your Center.

7) If your Center is facing a 0-Tech and cannot block the backside due to your MOMA/MOPA blocking rule, then you'll have to make a down block call (Domino) and every defensive linemen will then be easily accounted for.  Honestly, having the down block as your defacto DW blocking scheme will solve most headaches that you will face up front.

So without video, or a phone call, I have no idea why your pullers leave an unblockable gap on the backside.  However, it's not a play-issue.  It's a fundamentals-issue.  Successful pulling requires teaching, repetition and emphasis.  We can pull BSG, BST and BSTE at once and not worry about the gap.  But these suggestions are a place to start.  If you are already doing each of these, then some posted video will help.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Dusty Ol Fart
(@youth-coach)
Diamond
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7586
Illinois
Other
Club Admin
December 3, 2019 5:46 am  

Football in a Phone Booth;

............................F

....C...B...E.....T..B..B...T.....E....B...C
..............O..O..O..X..O..O..O
.............L............Q.............R
...........................F

Off Tackle No Pulling...Down Blocks across the LOS.  All I have to scheme is how to block 4 with 5 (See Bold).  Run a Post or Seam to POA with the Backside TE and now the Safety has to Cover or gets blocked (Now blocking 3 with 5).  Even Better.  You can flip directions as well.    Add a P.A. Waggle to the backside TE on an Out or Post Corner  Money.

You can flip it both ways. 

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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rpatric
(@rpatric)
Bronze
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 125
Maryland
6th - 8th
Head Coach
December 3, 2019 6:16 am  

You could screw with them by lining your playside TE and WB really wide. Like 10+ yds wide. Now you force the defense to make a decision. If the CB and OLB follow them, all i would do is pull the BSG to kick the DE and you have a huge hole for power. If they don't follow, you have a quick TD pass. If only the CB follows you have a 2 on 1, someone is open. If 1 widens and the FS moves over to cover the TE you have backside TE wide open in the middle of the field. If the OLB splits the difference you can double him pretty easily.
This is a killer adjustment to 16 power in the SW. I'm sure it would work great in the DW as well. Hopefully this is useful to you


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Geoketc
(@geoketc)
Copper
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 25
December 3, 2019 12:41 pm  

Then this really isn't a "What play should I run?" question; it's a "How do I fix our execution?" question.

If you are having backside leakage via the pullers, there are several issues that need to be looked at:

1) Generally, the slower the pull, the slower it is for those to close the gap quickly.  Recessing your linemen as far off the line of scrimmage as possible, can remedy this for 2 reasons:

A) The fillers don't have to fill for the pullers.  They only have to fill for the space in front of the pullers.  Too often, pullers are crowding the line of scrimmage, and the fillers are waiting for the pullers to leave so that they can fill the gap made by pulling.  By recessing the linemen off the LOS as deeply as possible, the fillers can fill faster at 2 and 10 o'clock (moving at a forward) angle, instead of at a slower 3 and 9 o'clock (moving at a horizontal) angle.  Which brings me to my next suggestion:

B) Fillers often WAIT until the pullers have vacated to begin their fill.  There can be no wait.  The snapping of the ball usually has the following sequence:

a) Center snaps ball, THEN
b) Guard begins to pull, THEN
c) Tackle begins to pull, THEN
d) End begins to fill.

By the time you get to "d," it's too late.  Waaay too late.  The pull and the fill HAVE to happen at the SAME time and both should happen DURING the snap; not AFTER.  Even teams that don't have a problem with filling for pulls, are usually too slow in this regard.  Whenever I watch video of teams that have problems with the pull (and thus, the fill), I usually see the defensive line coming across the LOS while the offensive line is still in their 3-point stance.  This should NEVER happen.  The offensive line has the built-in advantage of not only knowing the snap count, but also the direction of the play.  Mobility drills (foot fire) are your friends here.

My o-lines are recessed so deeply, the Guard's down hand is touching the Center's heel.  That's deep.  That gives us a 45-degree "running" pull, instead of a 90-degree "horizontal" pull.

2) Using a 2-point stance will get you where you want to go even faster, but you lose the depth that a 3-point stance will give because the player's body is more under his head in a 2-point, while the player's head is more in front of his body in a 3-point.  Since the G/T/E's heads have to be even with the Center's hip, that means that a player in a 3-point can have greater depth from the LOS and that a player in a 2-point will be closer to the LOS. 

3) If your pulling Guard and Tackle create too large of a backside hole and your Superman/shoeshine/scramble block isn't closing it, then you also have to look at how your Center is blocking.  If he blocks "away," then his block is filling for the pulling Guard.  That means your TE only has to fill the gap left by the pulling Tackle. 

4) If your Center isn't making a consistent backside block for the pulling Guard, you need to fix that.  Most Centers don't get the amount of footwork drills needed to be effective at making cut-off blocks.  My Centers get 50 snaps with left footwork, 50 snaps with right footwork and 50 snaps with base footwork at every practice.  They just don't snap the ball, over and over.  Ball snap repetition without footwork teaches your Center to keep his feet glued to the ground and be a statue.  150 snaps per day, with footwork can be grueling.  But that's as it should be because of what the job entails.

5) Consider GaTE.  A Guard and Tight End pull will allow you to fill for the pulling Guard with your Center, while the Tackle doesn't to fill for anyone.  And any defender coming through the spot vacated by the pulling TE should not be able to make a play in your backfield.  If they do, then your play itself is too slow.  In addition, he's probably anticipating your cadence, which is solved by a slew of hardcount options.  Counter is also a fun way to handle him.

6) Consider unbalanced.  In an unbalanced set, you have effectively "pre-pulled" your backside Tackle, meaning that you only need to pull your backside Guard, and he should be easily filled for by your Center.

7) If your Center is facing a 0-Tech and cannot block the backside due to your MOMA/MOPA blocking rule, then you'll have to make a down block call (Domino) and every defensive linemen will then be easily accounted for.  Honestly, having the down block as your defacto DW blocking scheme will solve most headaches that you will face up front.

So without video, or a phone call, I have no idea why your pullers leave an unblockable gap on the backside.  However, it's not a play-issue.  It's a fundamentals-issue.  Successful pulling requires teaching, repetition and emphasis.  We can pull BSG, BST and BSTE at once and not worry about the gap.  But these suggestions are a place to start.  If you are already doing each of these, then some posted video will help.

--Dave

Coach, this is a very good starting point. Thank you


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DoubleWingCoach
(@doublewingcoach)
Gold
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1672
December 5, 2019 8:59 am  

Wow!!!

First thanks fellas for using my BLAST video as an example..... Sorry I took a little leave of absence from the board but I've been helping coaches around the country try and execute their DW/GW offenses... i promise i'll be on here more....

Okay if ANY OF MY OPPONENTS dare to put 10 men on the line I'm gonna WEDGE them or BLAST them until the cows come home....

Or I am going to RUN a SINGLE play called NOMO FOUR GO and end that madness for the rest of the game.

I typically run this play in warmups as a reason to never try and put 10 men on the LOS versus me.... I will run NOMO FOUR GO over and over right near where the other team is warming up.... The threat of "THE BOMB" is usually much worse than the actual drop of "THE BOMB"....

Ok if passing isn't an option against that front.. then wedge and blast them to death.....

This is another reason why I have evolved to the Gun Wing/DTDW combined.... Teams have a hard time looking at a QB in shotgun and wanting to put ten men on the LOS for obvious reasons... THen I will run Gun 34 Power OR Gun 34 BLAST until I see the DC throw his clipboard or quit...

Then I will run it eight more times....


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Geoketc
(@geoketc)
Copper
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 25
December 5, 2019 11:33 am  

Wow!!!

First thanks fellas for using my BLAST video as an example..... Sorry I took a little leave of absence from the board but I've been helping coaches around the country try and execute their DW/GW offenses... i promise i'll be on here more....

Okay if ANY OF MY OPPONENTS dare to put 10 men on the line I'm gonna WEDGE them or BLAST them until the cows come home....

Or I am going to RUN a SINGLE play called NOMO FOUR GO and end that madness for the rest of the game.

I typically run this play in warmups as a reason to never try and put 10 men on the LOS versus me.... I will run NOMO FOUR GO over and over right near where the other team is warming up.... The threat of "THE BOMB" is usually much worse than the actual drop of "THE BOMB"....

Ok if passing isn't an option against that front.. then wedge and blast them to death.....

This is another reason why I have evolved to the Gun Wing/DTDW combined.... Teams have a hard time looking at a QB in shotgun and wanting to put ten men on the LOS for obvious reasons... THen I will run Gun 34 Power OR Gun 34 BLAST until I see the DC throw his clipboard or quit...
Coach - I seriously thought about running DW from shotgun. How does that change my plays? Are all the handoffs in front of the quarterback?

Then I will run it eight more times....


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bignose
(@bignose)
Silver
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 915
December 5, 2019 12:42 pm  

On the Calande War Room website under the board heading" Double Wing Football", go to page #3 and look for an article I wrote in 2015 titled "A Season with the Gun Double Wing".

It was too big to attach to paste here.

You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles!


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dbayer66
(@dbayer66)
Copper
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 18
December 9, 2019 8:24 am  

"With that many defenders on the line, you don't need backside pullers. "

excellent, thank you for that


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
Silver Moderator
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 626
Virginia
Middle School
Only / Head Coach
December 10, 2019 6:20 am  

With that many on the line, Wedge! Wedge! Wedge!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MybBH3CmfdQGtLmXFneftv_NTYqlgfTl/view?usp=sharing


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dbayer66
(@dbayer66)
Copper
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 18
December 11, 2019 9:12 am  

amen, we ran a single wing, and it may be counterintuitive, but the more on the line when they are in the "honeymoon" defense, the better the wedge works, the defenders are spread too thin and the defensive linemen end up getting in the way of their own linebackers thus becoming blockers for you even though they are facing the wrong direction

(cue the Borg clip; "you will be assimilated")


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17055
North Carolina
High School
December 11, 2019 11:30 am  

I seriously thought about running DW from shotgun. How does that change my plays?

--Everything's harder to hide.  It just depends on how much you rely on the offense as a power offense or as a misdirection offense.  If you rely on the power of the Double Wing, then Gun may be for you.  If you rely on hiding the ball and misdirection, it can be more challenging to accomplish it when your QB's handling the football 4 yards behind the LOS.

Are all the handoffs in front of the quarterback?

--They can be.  But they don't have to be.  It depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
Diamond
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 9449
New Jersey
3rd - 5th
Asst Coach
December 12, 2019 9:38 am  

I seriously thought about running DW from shotgun. How does that change my plays?

--Everything's harder to hide.  It just depends on how much you rely on the offense as a power offense or as a misdirection offense.  If you rely on the power of the Double Wing, then Gun may be for you.  If you rely on hiding the ball and misdirection, it can be more challenging to accomplish it when your QB's handling the football 4 yards behind the LOS.

But if you're relying primarily on power, why not go all the way to either single wing or some similar system where you're not snapping the ball several yards back to a player who catches it flat-footed and hands it off?

Are all the handoffs in front of the quarterback?

--They can be.  But they don't have to be.  It depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

Handing the ball behind him, a half- or full-spin series will look like that.  But then what are your quick hitters?  Do you just want to present the same rhythm every play?  The only way I see to keep the defense on their toes with an offense where the deep back mostly spins is to also have another back closer to the snapper in position to take the snap and dive or run wedge with it.  This would be your sniffer back if you're under center.


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