Didnt Hugh Wyatt have a deeper B back then  Markham?

I never try to correct someone who says they run double wing, because double wingback systems existed long before Markham -- going back a century plus.  That's why if I want to refer to that type, I say "Markham-style double wing".

It's like "run-pass option", by which people these days are referring to a very different type of RPO than I was used to thinking of.  Or, "The tight end was covered."

You can run A double wing formation and do whatever you want with it, but if it doesn't have the elements you describe, it's not Double Wing.

You can do all kinds of stuff within the Double Wing, but if you're not foot to foot and running Power, Counter, and Wedge, you aren't Double Wing.  Period.

I get annoyed when people call it "The Double Wing T" or call a double slot formation "Double Wing."

I've even seen sportswriters and announcers call GT's Flexbone under Paul Johnson "the Double Wing."  ::)

There is another, very old, dw offense that evolved back when Pop Warner was coaching.

I've seen and heard several coaches (locally, regionally, nationally) announce that they run the Double Wing, have coached the Double Wing, or know the Double Wing.  Then I see all sorts of aspects of their "offense" that tells me they don't know the Double Wing.  Here's my list of 4 things that tells me when someone isn't running the Double Wing, but claims they are:

Base Blocking all of their plays.  (The Double Wing is a rules-based blocking scheme.)

Wide Splits.  The Double Wing is not the Flex-Bone or even the Wing-T.  0-Splits to 6-inch splits are the norm for double-teams, pulling and to prevent blitzing.

A Deep Fullback.  With a deep Fullback, Wedge, Counter and Trap become a real challenge.  As does his Kick-Out.  He's called a "sniffer" for a reason.

A QB that Hands Off and Watches the Play.  The Double Wing is an 11-man offense and whether your QB leads up and blocks through the hole, kicks-out or does a hockey-stick maneuver, the ONE thing he isn't doing is standing there watching the play after hand-off.

Keep in mind that you can run the Double Wing AND base block, widen your splits, deepen the Fullback and have the QB hand-off the ball, but these are adjustments and change-ups, not the primary way of running the offense.  It's like running a QB-Sneak.  Every offense has that play, but if that's your primary way of doing things, then you don't really have an offense.

Are there any other tell-tales that indicate when someone isn't really running the Double Wing, but claims to be?

--Dave

When I see these things I consider it the Modern Double Wing implemented by Don Markham and enhanced by Hugh Wyatt, Jerry Vallotton, Leon Felicione, Phil Bravo and many more. 

1) Sniffer FB in some form. 
2) QB that is involved in the running game (by movement, blocking, and running the ball).
3) Compressed splits in the line.
4) Down, double and kickout blocking with pullers to overwhelm the point of attack in some form.
5) The offense centers around the power play (whatever you call it).  Power, power sweep, power pass (in some form), and reverse/counters/traps and play action passing game that compliments the power action.
6) The use of the wedge play I think has become a big part of the double wing thanks to Hugh Wyatt. 

It doesn't matter if it is under center, direct snap, or in the spread if it holds true to those principles above it is the double wing in my opinion.  I don't have an issue with complimentary schemes or other types of blocking schemes but I think the doublewing offense centers around the above principles.

When we started mixing some spread formations into our offense we wanted to stay true to some of the sw and dw stuff that we ran. We had the qb at pistol depth and the fb next to him. We went pistol because we liked the better angle of the sniffer fb. Not that he was at sniffer depth but it was much closer to that then a normal shotgun depth. The next thing we were going to evolve into but never did was adding an h back which really is a sniffer. At that point I think we would of been running sw though. I don't thunk our spread stuff was dw at all but the dw imfluenced what we were doing. Heck, we still ran 85% of the time.

Okay, I like what Rob said...when we went full blown spread the last two seasons, what we did in the DW influenced what we did in the spread...we moved the H back around the formation to get him into the best position to get his block. We had pullers on power and counter, we used angles for blocking and incorporated combo blocks when we could get them.

As weird as this sounds...starting as a DW team made us a much better spread team I think...we started teaching the boys the game, how to run, how to block in spaces that they could manage and they became mean and nasty football players...the struggles to start playing in space were there, but not near as bad as they would have been had we started spread out...and the boys were mean and nasty and physical, something you don't always see from spread team...who like to think they are finesse team...we considered ourselves a physical football team, and our opponents did too.

I liked what happened starting with DW and then moving to spread so much, we are going to attempt the same recipe with the new team...starting them over in DTDW....then when they turn 10...assuming we have the horses to do it, we will go to some form of spread...using what we learned in a tight power formation and transitioning it to the spread.

Okay, I like what Rob said...when we went full blown spread the last two seasons, what we did in the DW influenced what we did in the spread...we moved the H back around the formation to get him into the best position to get his block. We had pullers on power and counter, we used angles for blocking and incorporated combo blocks when we could get them.

As weird as this sounds...starting as a DW team made us a much better spread team I think...we started teaching the boys the game, how to run, how to block in spaces that they could manage and they became mean and nasty football players...the struggles to start playing in space were there, but not near as bad as they would have been had we started spread out...and the boys were mean and nasty and physical, something you don't always see from spread team...who like to think they are finesse team...we considered ourselves a physical football team, and our opponents did too.

I liked what happened starting with DW and then moving to spread so much, we are going to attempt the same recipe with the new team...starting them over in DTDW....then when they turn 10...assuming we have the horses to do it, we will go to some form of spread...using what we learned in a tight power formation and transitioning it to the spread.

I have always thought that we messed with defenses a great deal when we moved from our more traditional Direct Snap looks to more spread looks.  To go from a compressed look and playing in a box out to playing in space confused defenses.  It also put defenders in a real bind in how they responded to us..often missing alignments and/or assignments.  Puts a lot of stress on them.

In  our 2x2 look the BB was one slot and the WB was the other slot.  If we ran our traditional power series the BB went into motion to put him back into a sniffer look presnap.  The tackle was our primary puller as we had split ends.  To hold that backside defense we often had the QB read the DE and we would make sideline calls to run SPEED option at the BSDE when we saw him creep in or give away that he was going to pinch/crash down the line.

pre motion

------------------e--------------t-g-c-g-t-------------------e
---------------------b------------------------------------w
-----------------------------------t--q
post motion
------------------e--------------t-g-c-g-t-------------------e
----------------------------------------b-----------------w
-----------------------------------t--q

I have always thought that we messed with defenses a great deal when we moved from our more traditional Direct Snap looks to more spread looks.  To go from a compressed look and playing in a box out to playing in space confused defenses.  It also put defenders in a real bind in how they responded to us..often missing alignments and/or assignments.  Puts a lot of stress on them.

In  our 2x2 look the BB was one slot and the WB was the other slot.  If we ran our traditional power series the BB went into motion to put him back into a sniffer look presnap.  The tackle was our primary puller as we had split ends.  To hold that backside defense we often had the QB read the DE and we would make sideline calls to run SPEED option at the BSDE when we saw him creep in or give away that he was going to pinch/crash down the line.

pre motion

------------------e--------------t-g-c-g-t-------------------e
---------------------b------------------------------------w
-----------------------------------t--q
post motion
------------------e--------------t-g-c-g-t-------------------e
----------------------------------------b-----------------w
-----------------------------------t--q

We held the bse by giving them a zone read look. We would kick the psde with the tackle with the read look holding the bsde. The bsde chased, next play the qb would either pull it with a ko block or just run it naked. It was too easy. We scratched our heads and wondered why is this working. It turns out that kids are easily influenced. The backers would bite as welI. The qb and fb were strictly coached to carry out fakes past the los and that sealed the deal. Easiest install we ever had. Blocking was simply our counter play. We called the run play for qb or fb with a naked qb, added trap for both, stretch and jet with all of that off of it and had a whole new offense once we threw in a few passing concepts. Jet really influenced the backer as we would spread the receivers out wide Baylor style. That made qb trap with a fb lead a homerun play.

I agree wholeheartedly with all the things other coaches have said...

In my league I have seen a few teams try to go to a DW esque formation but as Coach DP said it lacked a few things...

1. No pulling.... didn't seem to have any "scheme" to blocking a play that I could see

2. Deeper fullback... This one is a tossup for me. Because at times I have gone to a deeper fullback for my DW Option game.  I needed the space for timing. You can fake a DE with a read option ride, if the Fullback or Dive back is in the sniffer position.... however when I saw a deeper fullback with other teams it was because they were using him for standard dive plays....  So if you back your fullback up and you're running DW and you can't tell me why... You're not running the DW...

3.  ZERO LINE SPLITS.... I see this as a true DW "thing" too..... If you are running wide open gaps... that ain't DW...

4. NO WEDGE... I'm sorry but if you don't run a wedge.... I don't regard you as a TRUE OLD SCHOOL DW team.... Period...

I have always thought that we messed with defenses a great deal when we moved from our more traditional Direct Snap looks to more spread looks.  To go from a compressed look and playing in a box out to playing in space confused defenses.  It also put defenders in a real bind in how they responded to us..often missing alignments and/or assignments.  Puts a lot of stress on them.

In  our 2x2 look the BB was one slot and the WB was the other slot.  If we ran our traditional power series the BB went into motion to put him back into a sniffer look presnap.  The tackle was our primary puller as we had split ends.  To hold that backside defense we often had the QB read the DE and we would make sideline calls to run SPEED option at the BSDE when we saw him creep in or give away that he was going to pinch/crash down the line.

pre motion

------------------e--------------t-g-c-g-t-------------------e
---------------------b------------------------------------w
-----------------------------------t--q
post motion
------------------e--------------t-g-c-g-t-------------------e
----------------------------------------b-----------------w
-----------------------------------t--q

When we were spread out and ran counter, we pulled back side G and T and cut the back side end with the H back...we wanted our two pullers on that play...G kicked out the Play side DEMLOS, T pulled and got the First Backer to show up, a lot of times, it ended up being a safety as the backers would either be caught in the wash on the down blocks on the playside or they flowed to the back side after watching the backfield action starting to the plays back side...

This season we are going to be 8 man football, and was playing around with the blocking...I think we are going to pull the backside T, and down block with the backside G to the playside T...and use the BB to Kick out the DE...I was tempted to try pulling both G and T, thinking that the backside DEMLOS should not be an issue, then I was reminded that the boys are only 8 and a messy mesh could get them run down from behind with an athletic DEMLOS...so better to account for him...

1. No pulling.... didn't seem to have any "scheme" to blocking a play that I could see

--No pulling.  Yes, I'm going to add that to my list.

2. Deeper fullback... This one is a tossup for me. Because at times I have gone to a deeper fullback for my DW Option game.

--Yes, as I mentioned, you can deepen the Fullback as an adjustment.

So if you back your fullback up and you're running DW and you can't tell me why... You're not running the DW...

--That's really what it comes down to.  "If you can't tell me why..."

--Dave

What isn’t the Double Wing?

Oh man.......