Posted by: @youthballee

Anyone else run into this kind of stuff? Why did it take six years to finally get this call? How have you dealt with it

 

Yes, and it's been very frustrating for me as well. To be fair to the refs, it's a hard one to catch. Since we film scout nearly all of our opponents, we know about it going into to the game and we prep the officials as well. We yell it onto the field when we see it. Sometimes the refs get testy about it, so we yell at our defense, "JIMMY! #80 is ineligible! Don't cover him!!!". Not covering him is a bad idea, BTW. They will throw to him and the ref will not call it. Mahonz can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've ever got that call out of maybe a dozen times we've seen it. 

Back when I was coaching with Kent, we pointed it out, but the opponent had scored 2 TDs and a PAT in the first half to a "Power tackle". They had a talk with the opposing coach, who said, "The wideout is in the backfield". The ref dutifully relayed that info to Kent, who replied, "Then they have 5 in the backfield." In the 2nd half, they finally called it and the opponent stopped doing it. This allowed us to focus on getting them to call illegal blocks below the waist from their WB to our OLB.

One of the teams in our club has not lost a football game in 3 seasons. I really like and respect their coach, but he has one pass play that happens to be illegal for the same reasons we're talking about. In our post season festival, I asked an AC of ours (very knowledgeable) and an opposing HC who we are very friendly with what they thought. Both think that this guy is too good of a coach to not know what's going on and that he's "gaming the system", or "bending a rule". The Opposing HC even called it "borderline", which really boggles my mind. 

In my 1st season as an AC, we ran split backs with 8 men on the LOS. Why? Because the idiot WR coach said he liked his receivers to be "on the line". Then, the HC installed a Pop Pass to what he insisted was a TE, but I will always refer to as a "Power Tackle". I told him that he's ineligible because he's covered. If you've ever seen "This is Spinal Tap", where Michael Mckean is explaining why the volume knob goes to "11", it was just like that. "But . . . he's a Tight End . . . " I tried to explain, "No, he's not an end of any kind because he's covered by that guy (pointing to WR)." The annoyed idiot WR coach came storming over, "What's going on?". I explained that we can't throw to this kid because he's covered. The actual response from idiot WR coach was, "Why in the hell do we care if they cover him? I hope they don't cover him!" I suggested that he pull his WR a yard off the LOS, making him a Flanker Back, but that only set him off. "NO!!! I WANT MY WRs ON THE LINE!!!". So I gave up. Later in the season, we threw that pass and somehow managed to complete it, only to be flagged for illegal touching, or ineligible man downfield. Idiot WR coach lost his mind and actually got ejected. 

I frankly don't understand what's so hard about this. Must have 7 on the LOS. Ends are eligible. Backs are eligible. 

Posted by: @youthballee

For years, another youth team in our league has gotten away with this. They line up with a WR (checked in on), Slot (checked in off) and a TE (on - covered by WR, ineligible). We always bring it to the officials attention before the game when we play them. We also have our corner or safety yelling out by uniform number that the TE is ineligible. 

We put the CB on the WR, OLB on the slot. We tell our DE to always bump the TE and not let him release cleanly, whether he's covered/ineligible or not. 

Then they run it, the TE will release to either catch a pass, or pick our LB downfield (illegal downfield) and the officials never call it. Very frustrating.

Until yesterday.

Yesterday, in our final game of youth ball, with a championship on the line, they got away with it a few times in the game, but we worked the officials over a bit and they eventually called back a TD because a covered TE released, rubbed out our LB downfield and his man, the slot, broke free for a score. It got called back and their coaches lost their collective minds. They've gotten away with it for so long, once they got called for it they couldn't bear it.

Anyone else run into this kind of stuff? Why did it take six years to finally get this call? How have you dealt with it

 

 

Sadly, you have to stay after the officials about it. As my favorite ref told me once, "What am I Christopher Columbus? I wasn't looking for that!"

While I didn't run into this exact scenario, I ran into several instances of rule violations this year. One team either didn't know -- or didn't care -- about the red-stripe rule. The rule states that anyone over the weight limit, must play inside the tackle box. Yet, against the top team, they had him lined up in a six or eight tech on every play. I informed the officials that he couldn't do that and the other coaches raised Hell about it, claiming that I needed to stop whining. The reality of it is that my oldest son is a "red stripe", so I had to play him inside last year instead of outside. Ironically, he caused two safeties in a game against this same team last year, so I'm amazed they didn't know the rule (or perhaps they did and thought they could get away with it).

I'm shocked at how many coaches simply don't know the rules. It speaks volumes that I had officials telling me to explain the blind-side block rule to the 9-10 coaches because they lost their minds every time they got called for it (which was pretty often). From what you've described above, it sounds like the other team either 1) knows the rule and thought they could break it or 2) doesn't know the rule. I'd hope that it's the latter... I don't like the idea of a team trying to win games by doing things they know are against the rules.

The only advice I would offer is to approach the zebras respectfully. I usually start off by saying, "Mr. Official, I have a quick question". 

That's my two cents... looking forward to hearing from others...

Coach Terry

Posted by: @gumby_in_co

Posted by: @youthballee

Anyone else run into this kind of stuff? Why did it take six years to finally get this call? How have you dealt with it

 

In my 1st season as an AC, we ran split backs with 8 men on the LOS. Why? Because the idiot WR coach said he liked his receivers to be "on the line". Then, the HC installed a Pop Pass to what he insisted was a TE, but I will always refer to as a "Power Tackle". I told him that he's ineligible because he's covered. If you've ever seen "This is Spinal Tap", where Michael Mckean is explaining why the volume knob goes to "11", it was just like that. "But . . . he's a Tight End . . . " I tried to explain, "No, he's not an end of any kind because he's covered by that guy (pointing to WR)." The annoyed idiot WR coach came storming over, "What's going on?". I explained that we can't throw to this kid because he's covered. The actual response from idiot WR coach was, "Why in the hell do we care if they cover him? I hope they don't cover him!" I suggested that he pull his WR a yard off the LOS, making him a Flanker Back, but that only set him off. "NO!!! I WANT MY WRs ON THE LINE!!!". So I gave up. Later in the season, we threw that pass and somehow managed to complete it, only to be flagged for illegal touching, or ineligible man downfield. Idiot WR coach lost his mind and actually got ejected. 

This exchange made me think of the movie "Dude, where's my car"

"What does mine say"

"Dude"

"Cool, what does mine say"

"Sweet"

"Yeah, I know but what does mine say?"

This drives me crazy!!! There was a team in our league last year that ran a wishbone backfield and then would send their WR (on the LOS) in jet motion and either give to him on Jet sweep or run a toss sweep with the WR as an extra lead blocker. I talked to the Refs pre-game about it being an illegal formation and would scream from the sideline every time they did it and the Refs stared at me like a deer in the headlights! I don’t expect NFL caliber refs at the youth level, and I appreciate them giving their time on Saturdays to ref for these kids, but some basic knowledge and enforcement of the rules would be nice. 

@terrypjohnson One of my highlights this year involved our patch (striper) rules. Patch players must play on the LOS and may not "drop into coverage". We scouted a team who played a patch player at MLB. We knew we'd beat them handily, so decided to let it go. Early in the game, the opposing coach was screaming about us being cheaters because he didn't understand the subtleties of motion. Being accused of cheating is one of those things that bothers me a great deal, especially by a guy who plays a patch player at LB.

Later in the game, we get flagged for our patched DEs playing too far off the ball. We run the Killer Bee, so they are flexed. The ref actually moved our guys to the LOS. If you've ever coached the KB, you know how hard you have to work to get DE's to consistently flex. A few plays later, there was a timeout, so I took the field to "fix" the situation. I explained to the white hat that they are on the LOS, but flexed. He stated emphatically that patch players must be within a yard of the neutral zone (this is not in the rule book, BTW).

Me: "They are within a yard of the neutral zone."

White hat: "More like a yard and 3 inches." 

Me (to my players): "Okay guys. We really need to be on top of our flexes today. Mr. Brad isn't going to let us get away from being sloppy. So put your toe up to the neutral zone and take a step backward. Now you're within a yard of the neutral zone. Right, Mr. Brad?"

White hat: "Yes, they are good."

I started walking away, then pulled a "Columbo". 

"Oh, one more thing. #20 is wearing a patch and has been playing MLB all day."

On their next defensive play, he stopped the game to lecture both sidelines. He didn't flag them, but lectured them. The opposing coach told him, "He's a linebacker". Brad replied, "Not on my field he's not". 

But hey, he sure flagged us for having a 39" flex.

Posted by: @youthballee

Anyone else run into this kind of stuff?

The thing we deal with every season is the illegal quick snap.   

We have 2 rules getting violated on this play, Our league's 'house' rule is the coach on the field cannot say anything once the Center touches the ball.  Second is the regular rule, where the offense must be still for a full second before the snap.   

One of the teams in our league...  every season, every game... the Offense - except the qb, comes to the line the center takes the ball, the coach is still talking to the qb, then the qb walks to the line and doesn't even set - and often as much as half the Offense is still milling around in various stages of getting down in their stance - without pause, the qb taps the center inside thigh and they snap the ball & qb sneak.  The offense is not set for a full second.  Every time we bring it up, we're told to stop whining. 

We faced a team this year that had a strange substitution and play calling method. They'd gather all the skill players by the sideline with the coach the way you'd usually see just a QB talking to a coach while the OL huddled without them. This would lead them to subbing in one too many players, probably because they swapped players from TE to FB or move the QB to WR and go wildcat and just lost track. So they'd huddle with 12 sometimes and even ran a few plays with 12. I think we got the refs to make the call once, otherwise they couldn't be bothered to count them up. Then one time they did it on defense and we yelled they had 12, but nothing. I asked to the ref, should I call timeout next time they line up with 12 players in the defensive formation and count them for you? He replied, its not illegal to have 12 players in formation. So I followed up and asked if it was illegal to line up with 12 and run a play. Never did get a reply to that. I try to give refs the benefit of the doubt, I do appreciate their time, unless I think its something dangerous, but counting seems like the bare minimum.

@seth54 Our refs have some pretty sound mechanics. I was watching a crew once who had these weird hand signals. At halftime I asked them what was up with that and apparently, one would signal to the other "I count 11 on my side" and the other would signal back, "I also have 11". I was pretty impressed.

In our post season festival, one team got called for illegal participation and it nearly started a riot. It was clear that none of the coaches knew about the rule that was supposed to stop the "coach conference" trick play. I don't think they meant it as a trick play because the QB, instead of going out for a pass, blocked a CB. I don't know the rule by heart, but to participate, I think a sub has to cross the hash marks. This field didn't have hash marks, but he was within a yard of the sideline the whole time.

To put it simply, Zebra's at our level arent likely to look for anything unless it is right in front of them.  They aren't counting bodies on the line or in the backfield.  I stopped telling my Wideouts to check with the Side Judge.  Why?  Because we were essentially "ratting ourselves out." !  

Hell I was once warned by a Zebra that he was going to kick a player out of the game for, and I quote, Hitting too hard!   

Posted by: @youth-coach

To put it simply, Zebra's at our level arent likely to look for anything unless it is right in front of them.  They aren't counting bodies on the line or in the backfield.  I stopped telling my Wideouts to check with the Side Judge.  Why?  Because we were essentially "ratting ourselves out." !  

Hell I was once warned by a Zebra that he was going to kick a player out of the game for, and I quote, Hitting too hard!   

 

Wow. That helps put things into perspective for me. However, the flip side of that is a ref who essentially ruins the game by throwing so many flags. Before COVID, when our guys were 2nd graders, one ref threw so many flags in the 2nd game of the season for lining up in the neutral zone, illegal formation (WR was off the line), false start (fidgeting/flinching), on field coach not being 10 yards from the ball, or talking when he wasn't supposed to, etc, etc, etc. Look, I get it. It was our job to have these guys game ready, but damn. 2nd graders in their 2nd EVER football game? KO was scheduled at 7pm, but was 20 minutes late. Game was over at 10:20pm.

This season, due to COVID, we had a 2 hour curfew. In our first game, we weren't supposed to have a warmup, but we got our players on the field as soon as we could, took their temperatures, etc. and started an abbreviated pre-game. Brad interrupted that to have a pre-game lecture on patch rules, "this is my whistle", etc etc etc. Then, he threw so many flags that our game was cut short and we were no huddle that day. I think we had a total of 3 games with this guy that ended early (we go by play count) due to so many flags.

In our "bragging rights" game in our festival, we pulled the "no nonsense" crew who were there to keep the peace in a few games with the potential to get "weird". I was acting HC and the white hat told me in pre-game that he's not going to throw flags unless it's egregious or if there's a safety issue. He let them play and it was marvelous.

Here's my thought, just sack the qb before the in-elligible can receive the pass. 

Posted by: @gumby_in_co

Posted by: @youthballee

Anyone else run into this kind of stuff? Why did it take six years to finally get this call? How have you dealt with it

 

Yes, and it's been very frustrating for me as well. To be fair to the refs, it's a hard one to catch. Since we film scout nearly all of our opponents, we know about it going into to the game and we prep the officials as well. We yell it onto the field when we see it. Sometimes the refs get testy about it, so we yell at our defense, "JIMMY! #80 is ineligible! Don't cover him!!!". Not covering him is a bad idea, BTW. They will throw to him and the ref will not call it. Mahonz can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've ever got that call out of maybe a dozen times we've seen it. 

Back when I was coaching with Kent, we pointed it out, but the opponent had scored 2 TDs and a PAT in the first half to a "Power tackle". They had a talk with the opposing coach, who said, "The wideout is in the backfield". The ref dutifully relayed that info to Kent, who replied, "Then they have 5 in the backfield." In the 2nd half, they finally called it and the opponent stopped doing it. This allowed us to focus on getting them to call illegal blocks below the waist from their WB to our OLB.

One of the teams in our club has not lost a football game in 3 seasons. I really like and respect their coach, but he has one pass play that happens to be illegal for the same reasons we're talking about. In our post season festival, I asked an AC of ours (very knowledgeable) and an opposing HC who we are very friendly with what they thought. Both think that this guy is too good of a coach to not know what's going on and that he's "gaming the system", or "bending a rule". The Opposing HC even called it "borderline", which really boggles my mind. 

In my 1st season as an AC, we ran split backs with 8 men on the LOS. Why? Because the idiot WR coach said he liked his receivers to be "on the line". Then, the HC installed a Pop Pass to what he insisted was a TE, but I will always refer to as a "Power Tackle". I told him that he's ineligible because he's covered. If you've ever seen "This is Spinal Tap", where Michael Mckean is explaining why the volume knob goes to "11", it was just like that. "But . . . he's a Tight End . . . " I tried to explain, "No, he's not an end of any kind because he's covered by that guy (pointing to WR)." The annoyed idiot WR coach came storming over, "What's going on?". I explained that we can't throw to this kid because he's covered. The actual response from idiot WR coach was, "Why in the hell do we care if they cover him? I hope they don't cover him!" I suggested that he pull his WR a yard off the LOS, making him a Flanker Back, but that only set him off. "NO!!! I WANT MY WRs ON THE LINE!!!". So I gave up. Later in the season, we threw that pass and somehow managed to complete it, only to be flagged for illegal touching, or ineligible man downfield. Idiot WR coach lost his mind and actually got ejected. 

I frankly don't understand what's so hard about this. Must have 7 on the LOS. Ends are eligible. Backs are eligible. 

What's hard about it was the introduction of the coach-speak "wide receiver".  When they were called "ends" and "flankers" (or even better, "flankerbacks"), nobody got confused about it, because "end" has its natural meaning.

Coach-speak is useful, of course, and to that end (heh) the term "wide receiver" makes sense because in coaching them it's sensible to group flankers and split ends together in practice sessions, but people need to remember those terms have no application to the rules of the game.

On the other hand, the introduction of the term "covered" to refer to an end's being outside the OL in question keeps me off-balance, because I think of coverage as something the defense does!  Even the story above uses "cover" in both senses in one paragraph.

You know players can be confused by coach-speak.  But so can coaches.

@gumby_in_co

it’s nice to hear about the good crews. I will admit we’re obviously not perfect. We had a game this year where our opponent was running a player off as the snap count was starting. They didn’t get him off and our sideline started to yell that they had too many men on the field. The ref turned around and said, count them up, they played that one with 10, they didn’t need to sub anyone off. He was right

Posted by: @bob-goodman

You know players can be confused by coach-speak.  But so can coaches.

Especially coaches who refuse to expand their knowledge of the game. This was the staff that gave me the nickname "Coach Google". It was not a compliment.