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Defending a super spread formation  

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Seth54
(@seth54)
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@bob-goodman

 

They aren’t great downfield blockers, but they are very good with the cracks. And the runner will reverse field often and create those crack opportunities. I think the rest of the staff wants to leave our speed outside, similar to what coach Potter said below. I’m always going to be a good soldier, so I’m going to run with it.

 


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Seth54
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@coachdp

 

Funny that you called it a punt return, that’s what I’ve been calling their offense for awhile now. 

I agree about setting the edge and compressing the offense. The plan is to have the LBs blitz from the slots to set the edge, so it’s mostly a question of who we’d funnel to. 

I remember that post about Christopher something, and I think it makes a lot of sense. I agree about the interior not being a primary concern and I think MLB is very overrated at my level. I’ve just been watching this kid make 2-3 runs like this a week, so I’m just trying to find a way to be sure I have guys in pursuit that can get there. As I said to Bob above, it moot, the HC wants to keep our speed outside, so I’ll go full speed ahead in that direction 

 


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Dusty Ol Fart
(@youth-coach)
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As Dave points out more often than not I want my best players on the edges to squeeze the play back inside to the crowd or force them to go deeper into the backfield to go around that Outside in Leverage!

I found that, at the youth level, Speed off the edge can wreak havoc in a backfield.  If that Speed can also tackle decently, its Gold.  It's kid of like a Blitz.....Many youth coaches Blitz all the time with the hope that it has an effect. I call that Blitzing FOR effect. (Example Mike Blitz A Gap when they NEVER run inside) By Contrast if you Blitz with purpose and intent in order TO effect, it makes a huge difference. (Example a Corner Blitz on the Field side on a team that runs sweeps). A gent I know did a study that says most teams run sweep to the field (Wide) side it is especially true if that is the same side their bench is on.  Given a spot in the Middle of the field.....Blitz the side their bench is on.  

Whenever possible I want to force the offense to react to the pressure the defense can put on it.  If you're chasing the offense, odds are your having a bad day.  LOL    

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @seth54

Funny that you called it a punt return, that’s what I’ve been calling their offense for awhile now. 

I agree about setting the edge and compressing the offense. The plan is to have the LBs blitz from the slots to set the edge, so it’s mostly a question of who we’d funnel to. 

I remember that post about Christopher something, and I think it makes a lot of sense. I agree about the interior not being a primary concern and I think MLB is very overrated at my level. I’ve just been watching this kid make 2-3 runs like this a week, so I’m just trying to find a way to be sure I have guys in pursuit that can get there. As I said to Bob above, it moot, the HC wants to keep our speed outside, so I’ll go full speed ahead in that direction 

If that's their offense and what you have to contend with, if your defense is decently coached you will have no trouble.  You have an 11 vs. 3 advantage (assuming you play with 11 on defense.  In the video, it looked like they were only playing with 3 defensive players).  But I say "11 vs. 3" because the offense used only 3 offensive players on that play.  The offense also committed 2 penalties on the play and neither were called.  Their receivers watch the snap and don't react until the ball is in their QB's hands, their backside receivers do nothing and they don't block the single, biggest threat to the play, which was the play side DE.  That's not smart.  Even a defense with average-talent youth players could easily stop this play, but that defense accommodated everything their offense wants to do.  The one hero on the defense simply missed his tackle, which should not have been an issue if anyone else defensively did what they should do.  As it is, he probably got blamed by the coaches for missing the tackle, when he's probably the best player they have defensively.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @seth54

Would you guys rather have the speed inside to pursue or outside since that’s where they are headed?

Seth, while I like my speed outside (because that's where the offense is sending their speed.  In addition, since I want my edge personnel [Cornerbacks and Outside Linebackers] in their backfield and they are the furthest away, their speed will help them compensate for distance.  Also, if they have to go downfield on pass coverage, their speed with serve them.

That all being said, you do NOT need fast personnel to play effective contain defense against the "fast kid who runs outside."  What you do have to have is correctly placed personnel.  (Think of it like the game, "Red Rover."  Regardless of how fast a kid is, he still has to break through the locked arms.)  As you can see in the vid, the ball-carrier gets outside because the defensive personnel is lined up incorrectly to stop that play.  In addition, once the ball is snapped they hurt themselves even more by not knowing how to play in space.  They look like the Keystone Kops out there running around trying to guess what they're supposed to do.  What you need are players who understand what their role and responsibility are.  Each player should be required to only cover a minimum of 5 yards of space.  And that's only 2.5 yards to his right and 2.5 yards to his left.  Who can't cover that?!  So that's 10 yards of outside coverage by only 2 players.  Of course, their coverage distance ability could expand if they are talented.  And the further away they start from the ball-carrier, the more time they have to adjust to a ball-carrier coming to their side.  My point is, the common complaint of "we have no speed" doesn't really apply to the success of your defense IF they're correctly placed, if they're taught how to play on an island, and if they know how to contain the run.  And they don't even have to be good tacklers IF they know proper contain lines, because the ball-carrier will either "cut it up," or risk going deeper into the backfield in order to get around them, IF THEY SHOW THEMSELVES.  Going deeper into the backfield to go around the contain costs the RB more time, and that extra time is what will aid not only your backside pursuit (DE, OLB, CB) which was demonstrated by NO ONE in the video, but also aid your backside contain (ILBs).

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @youth-coach

I found that, at the youth level, Speed off the edge can wreak havoc in a backfield.  If that Speed can also tackle decently, its Gold.  It's kid of like a Blitz.

--Agreed.  I look at it like this: the ball-carrier wants to get outside.  With most youth defenses packing the inside and chasing inside/out, not knowing how to set the edge, not knowing how to contain, not knowing how to use their feet (they either run with the blocker going downfield, false-step all over the place, or run AROUND blockers taking themselves out of the play), chasing to get from Point A to Point B instead of starting at Point B and working inward, it's quite easy for the fast kid to accomplish "getting outside."  But the fast kid is only trying to get to "Point B" because there's no one there and he believes he can get to "Point B" before anyone else can.  That's why he trusts his eyes, even to the extent of bailing out on the play-call.  But defensively, what if you already had a defender at Point B, before the play even started?  That's no longer an option for many youth RBs because you've taken away that choice.  They're trying to "run where they aren't, not where they are." Which is why against most stacked defenses, the ball-carriers simply fly to the outside.

Whenever possible I want to force the offense to react to the pressure the defense can put on it.  If you're chasing the offense, odds are your having a bad day.

--Exactly.  In other words, ACT.  Don't REACT.  If you do, you will always be a step behind, in addition to being susceptible to any kind of shifts, motion or flow.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Seth54
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Ok, I found a clip of us against this team earlier this season. It may not work since I had to screen record with my phone. We are in red, we’ve moved some players to new positions, and we were aligning different now. We still had a deep safety in this clip, but not now. Let me know what you think, I’m ready to be hurt 😉 


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @seth54

Ok, I found a clip of us against this team earlier this season. It may not work since I had to screen record with my phone. We are in red, we’ve moved some players to new positions, and we were aligning different now. We still had a deep safety in this clip, but not now. Let me know what you think, I’m ready to be hurt 😉 

I'm seeing nothing.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Seth54
(@seth54)
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@coachdp

 

How’s this?

 


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rpatric
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@seth54

In addition to what Dave and Scott said about playing your best 4 on the outside of the defense, I would also recommend you play 2 deep safeties. Even against a team that doesn't pass very well it will give you 2 deep defenders to read the play and offer support in the event that contain is broken. If you can afford to play good players there it's a plus, but to be honest they are just support. If your corners and lbs do their jobs the safeties can sit back there in lawn chairs. That said, it gives you 3 players on the outside of your defense on both sides, and when they realize they can't run outside on you and attempt to throw deep, which they will, you will have 2 guys watching the QB and waiting for the ball. Execute those few adjustments properly and you should make short work of this team, that is if you have a plan on offense of course.


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CoachDP
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Although the angle and the size of the video make it much harder to see, the defensive alignment looks better than the previous clip.  But it's difficult to see how far off the ball your "stand up" players are.

It's impossible for me to view how the ball-carrier gets outside and whether he's outside the furthest contain man.  If so, that should never happen; even if the contain man isn't making the tackle.  There's no one who can prevent him from being the most outside guy on the field, if that's what he's taught to do.

I do think that the bulk of your defense is too tight, with the exception of your Cornerbacks.  (Again, the viewing angle is difficult.)  Your stand-up LDE is certainly to tight.  How do I know?  I can see his first steps are trying to cross the face to the outside of his blocker (their Slot Back).  The blocker gets his hands up, but doesn't block him.  However, the LDE would be in far better position if he were attacking from outside of the blocker.  He's already wasted several steps trying to get outside, when you could have just started him from the outside to begin with.  That would force their blocker to turn out on his block, which would leave a huge gap for your down lineman to run through.  You're not only wasting steps, you're giving their blocker (as horrible as he is), the leverage he wants to cut off your guy.  He's just too awful to do it.  In our alignment, our CB and OLB both have the outside contain, to turn the play in to our DE and ILB (as well as to our backside pursuit).  The only time I can think of where my stand-up DE/OLB would line up inside of a blocker was if were were running a stunt.

Your backside CB (#9?) appears to not only be on an island with no one on him, but just watching the play.  In this instance, you clearly aren't playing with 11 defenders.  (He should be sitting in the stands if he's just going to watch the game.  But like anything else, if he's taught that plays going away from him don't mean anything, then he's just doing what he's taught.)  He isn't prepared for any cutback because he isn't compressing the play.  He's watching and meandering over.  He should be trying to make the tackle from behind the LOS.  Even if he can't get there, he'd be in position for the cutback.  

I also see some bad pursuit angles.  In the end, although the ball-carrier is fast, he has to run much further to get around where your defenders already are.  In other words, your defenders have already beaten him to where he wants to go; the problem is some take themselves out of the leverage position; others are fussing with blockers.  Your RDE certainly doesn't look like a beast, yet easily slips through a double team because he simply doesn't engage them.  That's the approach your entire defense should take.

Conversely, #24 (who's inside) still finds himself in excellent position to make the play, but he allows their blocker to get his attention when his attention should solely be on the ball-carrier.  How do I know his attention is diverted?  He extends his arm to the oncoming blocker who doesn't block him anyway.  A diversion can cost a defensive player a step (or several).  And yet he changes his line of pursuit (runs around the blocker) when there's virtually no contact being made by the blocker!  And even if there was, the blocker was trying to play patty-cake with him, not block him.  You have a Linebacker getting influenced by a patty-caker.  Their blockers are influencing your defense without even blocking anyone.  How is that possible?  You're allowing your defenders to be influenced and REACT to what their offense wants to do.  It is MUCH harder to be successful that way, unless you have the luxury of several D1 athletes on your defense.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @rpatric

 

it gives you 3 players on the outside of your defense on both sides, and when they realize they can't run outside on you and attempt to throw deep, which they will, you will have 2 guys watching the QB and waiting for the ball. 

Let's say their ball-carrier is just so good that it doesn't matter where he runs, he will gain yards and be successful.  It obvious that they lack a coherent offensive scheme.  They'll just keep giving him the ball in hopes that he can create something.  The kid wants to run outside because he's the fastest player on the field.  He might run between the tackles equally well, but 1) I doubt he wants to do that, and 2) I doubt the play calls are for him to do that.  So why not dictate to them what you want them to have (the inside) and what you don't want them to have (the outside)?  I've seen plenty of offenses implode when you take away something they like/want to do.  If anything, make them beat you inside.  Then your MLB won't have to be running all over the field trying to make plays.  They'll be doing what he (and you) want them to do (Run right at Mike).

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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rpatric
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@coachdp

judging by the size of the kid running the ball on the film, it's almost a certainty that he doesn't want to run inside


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rpatric
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@coachdp

It looks to me that if he just widened the LOLB enough to where he couldn't be reached, that play was stopped for a huge loss. His LOLB got held up for a second and that made all the difference. Widen them LB's a bit more Coach!


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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Posted by: @rpatric

It looks to me that if he just widened the LOLB enough to where he couldn't be reached, that play was stopped for a huge loss. His LOLB got held up for a second and that made all the difference. 

Well let's give the ball-carrier some credit.  He's a fast kid.  But even if the LOLB doesn't make the tackle, he can change the trajectory of the play simply by being in the right place.  But let's face it, if that kid is too good to get tackled then he would score every time he touches that football and I seriously doubt that's what's happening.  I had a kid who was The Fast Kid.  He averaged (as best I can recall) about 16 yards per carry and scored 10 TDs.  He averaged 1 TD every 4 touches.  As good as he was (and he was the fastest I ever had), that means he still got tackled 75% of the time.  You could tackle him, if you were in the correct position to do so.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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