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Defending the Double Wing

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mahonz
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Mike,
  A bunch of dw teams have a nomo series.

R

We have only faced a small handful of DW teams...they all motioned.

We have only faced the Beast once...a DW team. They put it in at halftime ! Worked pretty well too. That Team had one heck of a FB.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Jburk
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Funny but true. Another coach said he doesn't like the double wing, he likes single wing. I watch him and he actually liked the I wing.

Well, I suppose that, technically, that formation does have only 1 wing.  ::)

The sword is more important than the shield.


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PSLCOACHROB
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Funny how the I can be power, option, zone, misdirection etc. The formation doesn't determine the type of attack. Those great Coach Osborne teams at Nebraska ran option out of the I.
A good dw team can be all of those except maybe zone. I can't see how you would run zone with zero splits. Though I do like the idea of the wb motion and toss of the dw into zone blocking with zone splits. I would think the angles and depth would give him some good reads. What do I know though, I don't run zone.


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PSLCOACHROB
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R

We have only faced a small handful of DW teams...they all motioned.

We have only faced the Beast once...a DW team. They put it in at halftime ! Worked pretty well too. That Team had one heck of a FB.

Mike, we run wedge(obviously), power, belly, belly counter(downright nasty play with or without motion), trap, jet, a midline type play(called give keep) and pass from nomo. The angles of attack on power are different but it works. It all doesn't go in every year but we have ran them all successfully.


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jrk5150
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Just throwing in some random thoughts from the whole thread -

DW is coaching intensive.  It is hard to run a DW that will beat average to good teams.  The reason to run it is that, IMO, it is as easy/simple for the kids as it is hard for the coaches.  That gives you an advantage as you get better as a coach - for kids, a well coached DW is very forgiving and simple to execute.  But man, is that "well coached" hard to get to.  I think that's why you see it so often at nationals but not so much in more locally based youth ball.

SW is much easier to coach than the DW and be successful with it.  Dave Cisar has mentioned before that the SW fits his mission - has to run it across multiple teams with varying levels of player and coaching talent.  I would agree with him - SW is a much better choice under those circumstances.  The SW has less talent needs, and less complicated teaching, especially with regards to the QB.  I think a pretty average coach that runs Cisar's material by the book is going to have success that exceeds his relative talent level.  I don't think you can do that with the DW - you have to be above average as a coach (to some degree) to get there.

My experience, which is nowhere near national caliber (we're three mercy rules from FL - we get mercy ruled by a team that gets mercy ruled by the team that goes to FL, who then gets mercy ruled in FL) -

First, and most obviously, my offense struggles when it gets beat up physically. Yeah, I know - what a shock.  Show me an offense that works when the other team is physically kicking your ass. 

Schematically, my offense struggles the most when the other team puts a really quick kid in the backside A gap, and puts a kid on the strong side TE that can beat him.  I am oversimplifying, but thinking about it, my offense relies on three things happening - no A gap penetration, FB at least stymieing the DE, and the TE moving the DT out of the hole.  If those three things happen, my offense is going to hum, nothing else really matters.

I think about the three games we've lost in the past two years.  Game one the other team was just better, and they played a 4-4 where my TE couldn't move their DE.  Loss 2 they put a kid over my TE who kicked his ass, and they had a N who dominated my back up C that had to be out there for 8 plays.  I knew we were in trouble play one when I watched their kid throw my TE out of the play.  And then that got confirmed when on the back-up C's first snap, he got driven back into the hand-off and caused a fumble.  And last year, we lost due to A gap penetration on the backside - my C and QT just weren't fast enough or diligent enough to cover the hole left by the pulling G.

In the final two of those three instances, I didn't make the right adjustments in time to impact the final score.  I'm better than most youth football coaches, but still not anywhere near what I'd call "good".  So if I can't make the adjustments to my DW after 6 years of running it and going to the DWS and becoming friends with Potter, Lawson and Gregory, then MOST youth coaches aren't going to make them either.

Nationals - that's a whole nother ballgame.  At that point, you're going to see good coaches with good talent, who are going to make good adjustments, many of which will be different from coach to coach based on their experience and their talent.


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DumCoach
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First, and most obviously, my offense struggles when it gets beat up physically. Yeah, I know - what a shock.  Show me an offense that works when the other team is physically kicking your ass. 

Been there.  You're just showing up to get beat.  When you've had seven guys go down and it's not even half time, I guarantee you're not ahead.

Fortunately, those kinds of game are rare, maybe once every four years for me.  The same team mows through everybody else too.

Schematically, my offense struggles the most when the other team puts a really quick kid in the backside A gap, and puts a kid on the strong side TE that can beat him.  I am oversimplifying, but thinking about it, my offense relies on three things happening - no A gap penetration, FB at least stymieing the DE, and the TE moving the DT out of the hole.  If those three things happen, my offense is going to hum, nothing else really matters.

I think about the three games we've lost in the past two years.  Game one the other team was just better, and they played a 4-4 where my TE couldn't move their DE.

My DC46 will do this but it gets pretty crowded with the foot to foot splits.  When Jack first tried DC46 it cut his DW offense in half.  Of course, he coaches a lot differently now than then.  That was way back on Al's Infosports.

  Loss 2 they put a kid over my TE who kicked his ass,

This is what Killer Bee does, absent the "who kicked his ass" part.  Killer Bee isn't looking to beat the TE.  It's a planned tie.  A DW is looking to "block down and kick out" to create the physics and leverage to open the hole.  A TE cannot "block down" on a man over.  And Killer Bee knows their solution is to go "WB On" or "Tackle Over" and is waiting for both.

and they had a N who dominated my back up C that had to be out there for 8 plays.

DC46 does this.  In fact, it makes a science of how to drive the center back into the QB.  In some cases it's a "Jimmy vs. Joe's" thing.  I have faced DW center's though that don't go back and seen many 300 pound centers for HS DW teams.  However, I eventually developed a technique to drive even a 300 pound center back.  So I'll make a war here.  It's one of those things where if you're successful with the center you win (It's "game over" for the DW team) but, if they can handle it, it's back to "Game on" and you have to find something else.

 

  I knew we were in trouble play one when I watched their kid throw my TE out of the play.  And then that got confirmed when on the back-up C's first snap, he got driven back into the hand-off and caused a fumble.

Yes.  The DC46 will not only drive the center back but leverage the top of the QB's hand down to create the fumble.  I had a 10 year old in a scrimmage against a 12 year old cause 31 fumbles out of 32 snaps (The 12 year old never came back.).  Too bad it wasn't a real game.  But DC46 will average about 2-4 such fumbles a game (most recovered by the QB.). 

  And last year, we lost due to A gap penetration on the backside - my C and QT just weren't fast enough or diligent enough to cover the hole left by the pulling G.

DC46 will do this as a change up.  If you have such a big center we can't leverage him back fast enough into the play, we'll change NG's to a little guy and let him shoot the "A" gaps and see if that big slab of beef at center can keep him out.  Such a center needs quickness as well as weight to defend both.  Some have it but not all.

Killer Bee does this every down to blow up wedge and force the center to block back (Most DW center's will give away the play direction.).

However, usually the center starts talking in the huddle and, after about three plays, they get it fixed (I just haven't got the talent to place here to consistently get through.).  But, if we can make you go "3 and out" and punt even once using it, there's usually benefit to that.

It's not easy for me physically blow up a DW's line.  Yes.  I have blown up center's and, in theory, I should be able to blow up a GOD blocking TE but never have.  We just don't do it.  If we have a defender blowing up your TE either I have a really good team (happened only once) or you don't have a cross block or long trap ("G"). 

In the final two of those three instances, I didn't make the right adjustments in time to impact the final score.

Often times you have to first spot what they're doing in order to make the right adjustments.  So I throw quite a few things at a DW, especially from Killer Bee in order to force them to make more adjustments than they have time (and then at least one is called to prevent their sideline from picking up on it.). 

I find it takes at least two pairs of eyes on offense postsnap to spot what the "D" is doing to give you fits because it's not always the guy you think that's causing the problem.  Things happen mighty fast when the ball is snapped and 22 guys hit each other.  If you don't have that second person you can go home and never know what they did to you until you see the film.  Then you see the adjustment that would have won you the game.  Too late then.

So I'm a believer in forcing a DW into an adjustment, and then anticipate the adjustment (WB On, Tackle Over, or cheat the FB over).  After this, AFAIK, the next adjustment is to scrap the formation and go to what looks to be a passing formation and then run your base from that by hoping to spread the defense.  Jack is pretty good at this.  So I make sure my Killer Bee is hard to move by formation.  One Killer Bee coach in his championship game facing an undefeated UBSW team had it shift into 303 when they could not move the ball from base.  They just got killed in 303 because Killer Bee automatically adjusts to spread concepts.

Now if the other team can take it further than this, I'm out of tricks.  But I've never seen a DW do that or even use half of what I've listed. 

Now I have nothing but good things to say about DW and have run it myself and I don't have to play Jack.  But I think most DW coaches begin in Double Tight and use the same adjustments, thereby making themselves predictable.  They only have so much time with their kids and only have so much experience at making adjustments.  This limits practiced solutions (And this is probably true of any youth offense.). 

  I'm better than most youth football coaches, but still not anywhere near what I'd call "good".  So if I can't make the adjustments to my DW after 6 years of running it and going to the DWS and becoming friends with Potter, Lawson and Gregory, then MOST youth coaches aren't going to make them either.

Oh!  I think you're pretty good.  I'll bet that "A" gap thing never happens to you again.  I'm sure you've got that one covered.  But I agree that most DW coaches don't have six years experience running it.  Like UBSW, I'll bet most have two years.  This is the coach I gear up my followers to beat - Not Jack, Cisar, Potter, or Lawson although the DW Symposium's Darren Fish helped me design the Killer Bee specifically for the DW.

Thanks for the post.  It was an educational read.  🙂

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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davecisar
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Granted I haven't seen every single game and every single team but I would know DW or SW if I saw it, lol. There are a lot of spread basded teams, pro teams, I back and a few wildcat based attacks out there. Only one true UBSW team and that was an 8U team.

I got a phone call this AM from a fella on the East Coast
His team played in the AAU National Championships this year and finished 4th

He is switching to the SW based on 3-4 teams he saw at Nationals that he thought played really well and ran it
He didn't know all the teams names except for 2 guys he spoke with- both gave him my name

You must have missed those games

One was from King George VA- at I think 12U- they finished 3rd
The other was from a guy who has won back to back AAU National Championships from Maryland- this year they won the 14U title.
He sent me this link, which I had never seen before:

Coach Jarvis and the Single-Wing Offense

He mentions me by name, I claims he's been to a clinic, but I don't remember meeting him
BTW- in the clinic I never claim to be the "inventor" I reference the teams in the 30-s- 50s that ran the offense  ;D

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.Winston Churchill


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hharris
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Back to the original poster, the above comes from DC46 for lurkers but with some "Killer Bee" thrown in (Killer Bee deals with teams that pull and block down by disrupting the play side blocking rules and following the backside pullers.).  A couple of coaches have combined the Killer Bee and DC46 into one defense (called "Steel Talon"). 

Killer Bee would do the above automatically without any adjustments but do it with one less lineman.  It's like when Mahonz posted his UBSW Killer. Killer Bee does the same thing as he did then too -  only once again without any adjustments.  The "D" automatically correctly aligns on either formation. 

What I like to do against DW teams is backside blitz the motion.  The home run ground play of DW is the "Counter Toss" and I simply let them try and run it into a blitz.  And, if they want to throw play action, the QB lost the WB in motion as a blocker against the backside blitz.

So now they have to run the "Toss".  One of the things Tom Landry came up with was to how to defend with four guys playing like five.  You can take out a DW's entire offensive line without a single PS lineman getting down field including on Wedge.  Of course, they're still pulling but, if you're pulling with them then your pullers cancel out their pullers. 

So now the offense is down to just three blockers on "Toss", the FB, QB, and PS Wing.  The first blocker I take out is the FB.  DW expects the DE to step up field and let himself be kicked.  Killer Bee does not do that.  It sends a defender right at the FB on "Toss".  Jack Gregory can tell you what happens when somebody does this to the FB.  The kick out no longer happens.  There is simply a collision and it's in the backfield.  Now the QB and the pullers plus the ball carrier are all trying to run inside that collision.

For the QB, if even he gets out, I give him a kid to block.  The kid is actually standing there and waiting.  The QB will never lay a hand on him.  You can run the play twenty times in a row and the QB will miss his block twenty times.  What's happening is the defender is waiting for the QB to show and then stepping forward across the LOS, causing the QB to miss and block air.  The defender is moving across the LOS because a DW runner on "Toss" is trained to bounce the play out if there is no hole.  This defender is stepping right for where the ball carrier is bouncing out to.  So the QB misses (or gets flagged for clipping) and the defender drops the runner for a loss. 

That just leaves the PS WB left as a blocker.  We let him block who ever he wants. We can do that because we have three unblocked defenders at the hole and he can't block all three.  The two he doesn't block play "cousins" exactly as Mahonz described in another post.

So now they have to sweep - their worst play - and it's what Killer Bee defends best.  I just did a powerpoint with film for free for a coach on this site (He can post how to see it.).  In it, I show how to drop a sweep for a loss or no gain in just five minutes of coaching time. 

Because Killer Bee automatically adjusts to both SW and DW without any call or adjustment, you can play different offenses every week with no changes.  But the real advantage is when you saved that fifth defensive lineman, it gives you an extra DB.  So you can defend Spread in Cover 4 and still have the exact same run defense as against DW and SW. 

So I have two different ways to defend DW - Either with DC46 or with Killer Bee.       

OK.  Somebody else's turn.  Maybe Jr.Titan?

Two questions:

1.  I assume this is cover 3 with CB's and FR?

2.  If motion goes away, who is backside blitzing the motion?  Is it the LB or CB?  Who has flat or deep third then?


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DumCoach
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Two questions:

1.  I assume this is cover 3 with CB's and FR?

2.  If motion goes away, who is backside blitzing the motion?  Is it the LB or CB?  Who has flat or deep third then?

1. No.  It's Cover 4.  That allows it to cover Spread next week if you face that too (Or if you play Jack who won't give you the base DW formation.).
2.  Both - A corner and an OLB.  The corner has a simple read that tells him the play (Counter toss, boot, or pass).

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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hharris
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1. No.  It's Cover 4.  That allows it to cover Spread next week if you face that too (Or if you play Jack who won't give you the base DW formation.).
2.  Both - A corner and an OLB.  The corner has a simple read that tells him the play (Counter toss, boot, or pass).

Are you referring to the DW Killer page posted by Mahonz?


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DumCoach
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Are you referring to the DW Killer page posted by Mahonz?

No.  He's doing that out of DC46

My reply was using Killer Bee.

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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hharris
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D

It used to be quite popular around here but has virtually disappeared. Don't know why. We have always done well against it.

The basics....

Thanks for the clarification DumCoach.

The picture above looks like a 5-3 cover 3 to me which I have done well with against the DW.  I am intrigued by the post which stated that you can automatically blitz behind the motion when it is going away.  I am assuming it would be a corner blitz and would be effective against counter.  What I don't understand is who has deep third then in the above defense if they blitz or if this wouldn't work with this defense.  Has anyone used this defensive formation and blitzed behind the motion?  Please explain.  I like the concept but am struggling with who picks up the pass coverage of the blitzing corner.


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mahonz
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Thanks for the clarification DumCoach.

The picture above looks like a 5-3 cover 3 to me which I have done well with against the DW.  I am intrigued by the post which stated that you can automatically blitz behind the motion when it is going away.  I am assuming it would be a corner blitz and would be effective against counter.  What I don't understand is who has deep third then in the above defense if they blitz or if this wouldn't work with this defense.  Has anyone used this defensive formation and blitzed behind the motion?  Please explain.  I like the concept but am struggling with who picks up the pass coverage of the blitzing corner.

H

We blitz behind the motion vs every offense we see once the kids get old enough...9 / 10 and up. Its something my son and I have been perfecting for about 10 years with many different age groups to include semi pro adults.

This is man coverage vs the DW so if the WB motions away there are only two realistic scenarios left when it comes to a receiver to that area being vacated. The OLB's are locked up on the TE's and MIKE has first back out if he can even get out of the backfield. Plus you have the FS over the top but this is an old slide. We have been in cover 0 mode now for a while and may stick with it for a while.

More info here...

http://www.dumcoach.com/general-defense-discussion/rolling-the-coverage-cracking-the-cracker-and-auto-blitzing-and-why/

And here...

http://www.coachbigb.com/coach-mahonz-returns-auto-blitzing-concept-for-youth-football

And here...

http://www.coaches-clinic.com/index.php/clinics/defensive-clinics/general-defense/38-the-less-is-more-approach-to-defense

If the KB interests you...that is all zone coverage so its a different deal altogether. I wouldn't even know how to design auto blitzing with zone....only pure man.  If the WB motions away and you bring that CB on a blitz and you are using the KB....Im not sure if that would even work?

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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hharris
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Thanks for the clarification mahonz.  Cover 0 makes sense  8)

You are giving me some ideas for our defense when we see DW using cover 0.  Thank you!


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CoachCalande
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In the history of the internet- NO OTHER OFFENSE COMES CLOSE to "how to defend?"  threads.  😉

With the defense pictured, attacking the flank with toss sweep and speed sweep is where you want to live. Mix in some toss passes and hit those deep corner routes (since the cb is in contain, hes not going to be very disciplined playing deep 1/3 is he?)

Having tough kids in the right spots, linebackers that attack lead blocks rather than trying to finesse through the traffic is a huge key.

MOJO    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtcRmKnRcsA

Go to WWW.COACHCALANDE.COM  for Double Wing DVDs, Playbook, Drills Manuals, Practice footage and emagazines. Ask me about our new 38 special dvds!


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