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blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
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It sounds like your problem wasn't the alignment, but how it was taught and coached.  You described a lot of unsound stuff there that had me scratching my head.

Do whatever you want, coach.  If the DC you've got coming in is so good and you trust him, why not just tell him what you're looking for and then let him install something he knows and teach it to you and the rest of the coaches?


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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Our DC who volunteered to run the D, I’ve coached against in the past. He claimed to anyone who’d listen to him that his Magic bullet D was a cover all system than handled every O he’s ever faced (false, as I’ve coached against him in past years and others have had their way with him and not to mention every time we’ve faced him in the past it’s been a complete romp for us) I trusted him

a) He makes a ridiculous one-size/fits-all claim.

b) You know his claim isn't true, because you've lit him up in the past.

c) And despite knowing his claim isn't true, you trust him anyway?

::)

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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let me clarify, my guy next is a DUDE coaching D

That doesn't clarify.  What does that mean?  Did you have a girl coaching the defense this year?

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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If the DC you've got coming in is so good and you trust him, why not just tell him what you're looking for and then let him install something he knows and teach it to you and the rest of the coaches?

^ This.  I like the Split 4-4.  However, it's not the only defense out there.  I'd base my DC-hire on one of two things:  Either they're a blank canvas (don't know a thing) and are willing to be taught (and we have the time to teach him), OR (preferably) he already knows what he wants to teach, and I tell him what I'm looking for (never get beat on the Sweep, keep explosive plays to a minimum and cause turnovers).  If he can teach his thing and still give me what I want, then we're good.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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DumCoach
(@dumcoach)
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Based on what you posted:

1. Our OLB couldn’t spill cause he was slow as heck.

Both my DC46 and my Killer Bee are spill and kill but Steve's 46 Gambler isn't.  CoachRob has film of me coaching it.  At one time it was the #1 viewed film in his library.

2. Our ends Held C gap vs a TE and he had our Ends going B gap vs just a T to his side

Killer Bee does something like.  DC46 plays a "7" OLB.

3. Our DTs were taught A gap so both goin A gap, both lined up in a 1 tech, no coaching these kids just get in the gap and occupy it.

Killer Bee puts two MPP's here and then provides them slants and stunts.  Guaranteed better.  DC46 plays a big, strong NG that can manhandle a center.

4. Our ILBs were lined up in 30 techs no matter how the O was lined up formationally saying just follow the ball.

Killer Bee uses two players like this.  The manual doesn't call them LB's but you can call them that.  The idea is to have your two best, fastest tacklers here and the possibility that one or both are not smart so they're learning reflects that.  They'll get smarter as the season progresses (And they may be smart already.  I just don't make the assumption that all studs are smart.).

5. Our backside OLB was a very fast kid, but just could not help himself chasing, staying home was an issue with him....luckily our backside DE bailed him out plenty of times this year.

You'll likely have to fix him of that no matter what "D" you run.  Not likely to be a problem in either DC46 or Killer Bee. He's too busy making a play on his side to think about the other.

6. Our secondary was solid all year, no issues other than just getting their hips turned to run quick enough on a fade route. We gathered 11 ints this year between our CBs and FS

That's very good.  Both my D's should keep that figure.  My systems usually intercept more passes than they allow completions.

Major issues we getting our DEs to squeeze the C or B gap (even after coaching them to do so, they’d still jump inside) , trying to keep our OLB home instead of chasing, coaching up our DTs to get upfield with their heads up and teaching them some sort of technique.

Basic problems to any defense.

Teams we faced this year and what they ran on O and how we did in the order we played them.

1. Shotgun offset I 2x1 team, ran ISO a ton, lesser competition on paper, won this game. He’s DC
2. Multiple formation team, liked to sweep, got burned twice on fades, lesser competition, we won, he still DC

Fades are tough for any system.

3. 2x1 auburn type team, offtackle mainly, lesser competition, we won, he’s still DC
4. Majority I and offset I UC team, sweep and off Tackle mainly, we lose a close one (toss pass from HB...we worked on it all week and a catch by a kid who had 3 guys around him and he made a play), even match on paper, we lose a close one,  he’s still DC
5. 2x2 and flexbone team, magority sweep and inside A gap runs, pretty even on paper, we win, he’s still DC

While my systems will defend all three, DC46 is best at #4.

6. Very big and physical team, lost my C, DE, ILB and QB vs these guys this week due to a bunch of things, had to mix and match, 95% unbalanced with a offset FB to strength, offtackle ISO all day, better than us on paper, we lose BIG

I am assuming this is an "I" team?

7. Unbalance jetsweep team with some DW, best play was their reverse of DW toss, lesser competition, we win big

They're likely susceptible to cross keying.

8. Double tight team, inside run heavy, play action, they’re much bigger than us with athletes, advantage them on paper, we comeback to win in the 4th,

Bye week

9. Played the flexbone 2x2 team round 1, they stayed true to their O and added jetsweep, we shut them down and gave up a TD pass on busted coverage by our backside OLB who good for 3-4 brain farts per game....we win big

Both my D's work here.

10. Played #1 team in division. Very multiple formation team, everything from the gun, they pretty much did everything well, PA pass, inside run, zone read pull by QB, very good passing game.... THEE game I knew if we played it’d be who has the ball last on O wins....no one scored on them all year, we lose 50-40 and we had 2 fumbles recovered, scored on 1 fumble recovery, had 2 picks

Killer Bee. 

I have noticed that teams that don't make it to first place will start to look to copy things the first place team did.  That's why beast started to get picked up.  This is the team likely to be copied.

Looks like inside run, outside run is where we need to shore up responsibilities, and player placement is huge.

I’d like to run a system year in and year out that puts us in the best position to be stout, is youth friendly, and isn’t too coaching intensive (let me clarify, my guy next is a DUDE coaching D and he’s coached up what his HCs has wanted year after year, and done well. He’s had 1 TD scored in 3 years on him, when i day “coaching intensive” means not having the AC know every in and out of the system, just teach the drills correctly) we get ALOT of dads who’ve never coached up played XYZ in HS and for the most part are willing to teach and learn.

Long winded, sorry but my defensive issues this year could probably take 3 pages alone if I didn’t have a life....haha

My D philosophy has always been to scout, take away what they like to do best, adjust if something new is killing us, play sound CBR on the backside and have our ILBs not over pursue.

BTW, coverage was either Man or we zoned trips from spread and had single guy manned up.

I’m wondering how many guys out there actually call both O and D....wasn’t as bad as I though doing it for basically half the year.

The DC46 has caught my eye.

Pop

OK.  No offense is going to make you have to get out of either of my D's.  They'll reach MS with either one.   
But I'm not actually trying to sell you my "D" either.  Find the simplest "D" that stops everything you face and run it.  I just responded with what I know best and you face several systems which is a strong point of my D's.  You said you have about a dozen kids that are "haven't played before types".  You also have a kid playing contain that can't spill and kill.  These are key issues.  That slow kid is #1 priority.  I use three drills to speed up players:

1) Tennis ball drill
2) Form drill
3) Strengthening drills.

The first two take one night or even less.  The third takes 8 weeks.  In my systems you must either fix him or replace him.

The "haven't played befores" usually get put at corner in both D's, plus two at DT in Killer Bee, and I'll usually give a small, fast, quick kid eight plays at NG in my DC46 to see how the center handles the changeup from big to small.  The really bad "haven't played before's" are out for three plays max, then get pulled and put back out again later for three plays again.  I don't like them being found by the offense.

I am a firm believer in coaching up the "haven't played befores".  Most don't improve because they don't get the coaching the studs do but its easier to make a poor player 50% better a stud 10% better.  Most coaches move them to the back of the defense where the offense has to run through everybody else to reach them.  But sometimes they get lucky or just throw over the top of everybody in front.  And then this kid gets caught one on one and gets burned for the TD.  And we even know the TD is coming when we see it's up to "Tiny Tim" to make the play as the last line of defense.

So I coach them up.  In fact I coach them in the games.  The DC is running the defense but I'm running the weak players.  Given 5 weak players I can usually turn two into starters, a third into a starter by game three but the last two are getting pulled after three plays.  I work the last two extensively to try and get them from zero tackles in a game to one, can usually do it but they never catch up with the first three.  By that math and the dozen kids you mentioned, you're likely to have five kids to worry about, less if you're better than me, more if you're not.

I also have a simple rule of thumb that, for every ten new players you get, one is a stud.  How many new kids do you think you'll be getting?  You might get yourself a "spill and kill" player.  I really prefer spill and kill to boxing.  If you box, you're going to give up the off tackle play (I don't even block boxing DE's) which you said is a problem.  And, if you spill and kill, you kill the sweep which you said is your other problem.  You also face a wide variety of offenses of which my D's do a very good job of. 

Myself, I'd talk to to the coach you want to run it and ask him if he prefers an odd front (DC46) or even (Killer Bee), Man (DC46) or Zone (Killer Bee).  Find out what he does well.

DC46 is not a 4-6 but a 5-3 in Bump and Run.  It's based on the 83' Bears defense.
Killer Bee is a member of the 4-3 family.  It's based on Tom Landry's "Doomsday" Flex II defense, the longest winning defense in NFL history with 20 consecutive years.  You use it and any team scores 50 points on you and I'll give you your money back.

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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Threepwood
(@wettstein)
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Most defenses (like in 90%) of them line up in any number of different styles and at the snap of the ball, morph into the 10-1 with gap assignments.  At least at the 13u age group and below they do.

You should choose the one that you are most familiar with.  If you're not sure, then find the one you want and educate yourself fully by next year.  You stated you wanted something that is simple - the 8-2/10-1 is just that.  If you install something else, and it morphs into the 10-1 at the snap of the ball, then you've just made it more complicated for no benefit.

You should first answer if you want an attack defense, a contain defense, do you prefer gap assignments or man assignments?  Will you see much passing?  Probably not I suppose.

What offenses are you facing?  How do they block?  That's a pretty important piece as well.


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parone
(@parone)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 766
 

Split 4 is a good starting point.  DTs are in 3 techs.  DEs are in C gap (5 tech if there is no TE, 6 or 7 if there is one), and the OLB will align based off #2 (4 yards off and 1 yard inside if he's wide, 3 yards off by 3 yards wide if he's a TE).  If you see trips, the FS will slide over top of him while the ILB to the trips slides out to stack over the T and plays B gap while he taps the DT on the butt to slide him into A gap.

Focus on the very basics: alignment, assignment, technique.  Teach the gap responsibilities and run fits to the LBs.  Make sure the PSOLB forces and keeps his outside arm free on every play.  Make sure the BSOLB slow plays for cutback at the 2nd level.  The FS needs to fit in the alley and the CBs need to crack replace.  The BSDE needs to stay home to play BCR.  Everybody else should attack the near hip of the ball carrier and play block down/step down rules.

That will get you started, at least.  Lots of materials out there for the 4-4, too.

if you could teach this well, and i mean all kids knew their stance, alignment, keys, and assigment out of the base scheme coach arnold is talking about-and that's no small thing, mind you-you'd be one of the better defenses in your league, assuming you have at least some talent.

you have to put that talent in the right spots etc, but if everyone was just doing the things in that paragraph, you'd be in great shape.

you could install 1-3 easy blitzes(that only change responsability for 2 or 3 players) and at the older levels, i might try to install an over front, particularly if i had one really good DT that i'd like to be on the strong side and in position to wreck the off tackle play.  but that's just stuff that worked for us, you don't need it.

i love the 4-4, but whatever you use, the main thing is YOU must understand it.  you must clearly understand the ASKA(aligment, stance, key, assigment) for all positions, and your ACs must understand it for their groups, not just the how but the why. 

in the end, most defenses are really very similar.  some are better for certain personel, but they are all trying to do the same things using the same techniques reads and rules(for the most part). 

the main things are YOU understand it, your ACs understand and buy in, you communicate in SIMPLE terms to your players, and they can make a read and execute FAST. 

after that, it's a function of teaching pursuit block destruction/avoidance and tackling.  but mostly, especially in a 4-4 D, pursuit.  they must all seek the football.

system doesn't win.  effective implementation, coaching, and the defensive mentality win.

Dream Big.  Work Hard. Stay Humble.


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parone
(@parone)
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first three paragraphs in previous post are quoted from coach arnold.  not sure why they didn't show up as such.

Dream Big.  Work Hard. Stay Humble.


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MHcoach
(@mhcoach)
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Joined: 10 years ago
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Pop

When  I first saw the OP I just shook my head thinking isn't every D a magic bullet or a stout defense. The difference being in how they coached & the players playing it. There have been some very good answers, & several different thoughts.

IMHO the real question is can you fix the defense when it breaks. You need to have an answer against the many different things an offense can do. When I first started coaching an even front, I had a real issue with this. One problem was specifically mine, I was over coaching one area to the point of paralysis by analysis. I needed to learn how fix problems & make adjustments.

My point is go learn as many different Defenses as you can, learn how to coach them. Then find the one that fits you & your staff. At 13U you will a wide variety of Offenses, you need to be able to adjust to them all. Not the players, but you as the coach. This is why learning different D's will give better idea's. Understand what each Defense is trying to do, & what their weak point is. Every D has one, so learn it.

Joe 

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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Pop

When  I first saw the OP I just shook my head thinking isn't every D a magic bullet or a stout defense. The difference being in how they coached & the players playing it. There have been some very good answers, & several different thoughts.

IMHO the real question is can you fix the defense when it breaks. You need to have an answer against the many different things an offense can do. When I first started coaching an even front, I had a real issue with this. One problem was specifically mine, I was over coaching one area to the point of paralysis by analysis. I needed to learn how fix problems & make adjustments.

My point is go learn as many different Defenses as you can, learn how to coach them. Then find the one that fits you & your staff. At 13U you will a wide variety of Offenses, you need to be able to adjust to them all. Not the players, but you as the coach. This is why learning different D's will give better idea's. Understand what each Defense is trying to do, & what their weak point is. Every D has one, so learn it.

Joe 

Great points. I think he is looking for something that will graduate thru the ages that is supported well with materials. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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I love playing against zero techs from an O standpoint, stud or Not, we've never had an issue with a zero, so I tend to lean towards even fronts.

I like 4 down lineman.

Then the field has been cut in half  🙂

Killer Bee is ultra complete with its own Forum for trouble shooting. Its a 60 front vs the phone booth formations....40 front vs the spread formations....on the fly so you are training rather than cross training.

For me that is the genius behind this Defense.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
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If I was you - and I was at one point - I'd do a little research and get a couple of brief primers on these various defenses.  Buy them if need be.  And then sit down with your DC and figure out which of them make the most sense to both of you.  You BOTH have to understand it to install and troubleshoot it.  You both need to believe in it.

There are a lot of good suggestions on here.  One mentioned but I think bears a VERY close look is Jack's 6-3, it's a defense that can do a ton of things for you.  Patsfatboy on here ran that D to the regionals in AYF with an 8th grade team, and it can definitely be run at a younger age.

For my money, the ones I'd be looking at would be Dave's WT 6, Jr. Titan's 4-4, Clark's KB, and Jack's 6-3.

Personally I am an advocate of JJ's 33, but that's because of its simplicity.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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sit down with your DUDE DC

I still dunno what that means.  ::)

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachMattC
(@coachmattc)
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Posts: 2352
 

Something I can purchase, that comes with install materials (manual/dvd) and can be of support if needed?

Anyone know of something like that out there that they can recommend?

Below is more along the lines of what I've landed on after going through this exercise a few years ago. I don't have a clear answer to give you but maybe you'll be able to end up somewhere you're comfortable with in a shorter amount of time than it took me.

If you want the short version, I used to run Killer Bee exclusively but now I tend to build whatever defense I need year to year (sometimes game to game) based on the parts I have.

I asked myself a lot of the same questions you're asking leading up to the 2012 season. I had a few successful years running UBSW under my belt but felt like I wasn't digging in deep as I could on defense. So I handed the offense off to other guys I trusted (eventually turned out to be a mistake) and focused on learning and running the defense. I read all the playbooks on this site and quickly realized I didn't have the background to digest all of the 'i get it, but why' questions I had. So, I put a lot of those questions aside and went all in on the Killer Bee.

For the next couple years I pestered Clark non-stop with questions and did everything I could to follow his system to the letter. We had a lot of fun with that defense and also found ways to make small improvements which (I think) are still in the updated manual. There are a couple old threads in the KB forum that document that stuff pretty well if you're interested. The level of support Clark provides for his stuff is second to none. I really made him work for that $50, lol. For me, that was made his stuff stand out.

Once I felt good about using the KB on defense, I got the itch again which is when I took the dive into learning Joe's stuff for our offense before the 2013 season. But because I now had to focus all my personal practice time on offense I had to hand the defense over to guys I trusted. Of course, they didn't take the time to learn it and as a result, didn't buy in 100% so I had to fight every day force them to fix things instead of changing scheme. I wasn't (and probably still am not) a good enough HC to sell the systems I want used, train the AC's up, get the full install done on both side of the ball, and trouble shoot everything week to week. In fact, I got so burned out trying to do all that, I was ready to walk away after the 2013 season.

In 2014 I got talked into being the part time OL coach with the condition that I was going to miss a lot of practice for work reasons. I was staying out of town for multiple weeks at a time during the season but I would watch hudl and help where I could. As the travel died down we made a deep playoff run and the HC asked me one day how I thought we could solve our problems on defense. I showed him a few things and then, boom, I'm the DC for the playoffs. I didn't have the the time to install the KB, we had to improvise.

I mixed in simple parts of the KB with 4-4 ideas from Joe and Jr. Titan, then threw in some DC-Pro 43 to fill a gap or two. It was a lot of work for me, but I didn't need anyone else's to help with it if I focused on keeping the rules mostly the same for every position. I did have a really smart Mike LB kid who I taught to make all the calls. We lost the championship game a few weeks later 7-0, against a team that hung about 35 on everyone else.

After getting those results by just stealing bits and pieces with almost no practice time I decided I didn't need to pick a published system any more. It would be great if I could pick a system in March and train AC's to help me run it front to back with no questions asked but that isn't a realistic situation I'm every going to find myself in. The better idea I'm chasing now is to train each kid to do 2-3 different easy things, then find a way to combine calls for the different things with substitution packages, creating the defense you want at any given time. Of course you don't just jump to in the first game, but if you work at it all year you'll be ready to do a lot of different things by the playoffs.

‎"Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn." Benjamin Franklin


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DumCoach
(@dumcoach)
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After getting those results by just stealing bits and pieces with almost no practice time I decided I didn't need to pick a published system any more. It would be great if I could pick a system in March and train AC's to help me run it front to back with no questions asked but that isn't a realistic situation I'm every going to find myself in.

Picking a new system and then picking AC's to run it is always a challenge. Just because you like it and understand it doesn't mean they do, especially if they played in HS.  The first thing they try and do is change your defense to their HS defense.  And, if they happened to star in that defense, you're in real trouble.  I had an "All State DE" and an "All State Corner" for AC's once and when I showed them what to teach the first words that would come out of their mouths were:

"That's not the way I learned it." 

That's not just a statement of fact.  It's a challenge to your authority. They're calling you wrong. 

When you pick a defense for somebody else to run, either you need great faith in that person to run it right or there's going to be changes all over the place and all of them bad until he's turned it into his defense which he still calls YOURS.  Then, when it doesn't work, the DC will say, "See?  I told you it wouldn't work." 

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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