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Dusty Ol Fart
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August 18, 2018 8:47 pm  

Inverted Coverage Assumes Tampa 2.  Your Corners are still Hook to Curl.  What is hard for many Man Coverage folks to accept (Trust me here it used to burn my arse too) is that here are windows in a Zone.  Windows are Big between the 20's and increasingly smaller inside them.  If one Kid is giving you fits,  LOCK HIM UP and play Zone with the rest. 

Now another question, why did you decide to switch from Man to Zone?  The reason many of us play zone is we don't have the athletes across the Defensive back filed to be able to Press or Jam consistently. 

Keep feeding Info. 

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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Dusty Ol Fart
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August 18, 2018 9:01 pm  

It think that we are having our corners focus too much on the #1 and they just are not aware of where the #2 is.  We will work this week on reading the #2 as well and see how it goes.

I'll let Tito chime in here.  There is a Huge Difference between Reading and Covering the 1,2,or 3.  From what I am reading, your mindset is still Man Coverage, not Zone.  I can show Man by alignment and still use Zone coverage.  The Zone Blitz is a Prime indicator of that.  Consider the aforementioned Coverge Scheme and go from there.

Dusty

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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PSLCOACHROB
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August 19, 2018 1:49 am  

Run c4. Safety reads #2. Easy peasy. Look into Michigan States 4-3 C4 which is what FSU will be running this year as well. If you get teams burning you on that read you can add variants to the read. Like deep zone unless 2 goes flat. They press the corners in that as well. Safeties are at about 10 yards.


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Coach Correa
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August 19, 2018 4:34 am  

Your Coverage is great in theory but its situational . I'm pretty sure if you go 2 Read route and learn how to spin safeties and go C3 and 1 route your kids a be far less confused and they will start to see some carry over in schemes that will allow them to play fast and confident. Give me a buzz 8609214206 so we can create a skpe time and i can diagram what im talking about and give you a clear pic on reads and what were protecting against.

Head Coach Tito Correa New Britain Raiders 14-U


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jvcoach
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August 19, 2018 10:09 am  

I watched the film from our scrimmage yesterday and have a better idea of what is happening with my corners.  One kid(A) is just playing man on the #1.  He never attempts to drop into his zone and just follows #1 wherever he goes.  #1 ran a drag and #2 ran a go and was open.  The other two look more like they just got beat getting deep.  One of them (B) got beat because he didn't move until his cushion was gone and then gave chase.  He did a better job after this. The other (C) stayed in his back pedal too long.  I think we can fix this. The kids playing the other zones look to be doing a pretty consistent job which was pleasing to see.

Kid A - reteach, possible position change
Kid B - feet need to be moving on snap every rep!
Kid C - they are taught to turn when they have 5 yards of cushion left. He needs to work on his timing.

Tito - I appreciate the feedback and will give you a call if we aren't seeing some progress with these guys.


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DumCoach
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August 24, 2018 6:53 pm  

After many years of playing nothing but man coverage, our guys (12yo) are truggling to pick up the concept of playing the deep zone.  We've described it, walked through, modeled, etc. how they should play in zone yet they still want to find a guy close to them and just cover that one guy.  We have been repping it in coverage drills and live for three weeks now and only a couple of our guys seem to get it.

We will continue to rep it and hopefully it will eventually gel with them, but I would also appreciate any suggestions to get us there sooner than later.

Thanks

I stayed out of the debate as a spectator because jvcoach listed himself as a Killer Bee coach (Which is a 4-3 type defense with inverted Cover 2 that can become Cover 3.).  Killer Bee uses Zone coverage which is actually pretty simple so I wondered why this coach had a problem with it until he said he had corner reading #1 which is a sure invitation for the corner to take him in Man (And which he did.) 

For lurkers, zone concepts have varied over time and by changing defenses (Nothing stays the same.).  There was a time when all a DB in Zone had to do was read an uncovered lineman.  Did he go downfield?  It's run.  Is he pass blocking?  It's pass. 

The effect of this simple read absolutely devastated offenses at the time.  Prior to this you could run off Man coverage without blocking them on a running play.  But when Zone came about and three receivers went downfield (the usual number at the time) and a lineman went downfield, nobody covered them.  Instead, everybody played the run ("Ineligible receiver downfield.").  So the runner had only 7 blockers to 11 defenders.  Seven cannot block eleven.  The running games got hammered so badly there was talk of making Zone coverage illegal.  That's how well it worked.  And that's why you don't have a corner read #1 receiver because that's the same thing as Man and is what jv got (Not picking on him here.  As I said Zone has changed over time.  I don't know how his works.).  I do know he's not playing Killer Bee to ask the question he asked.

My Killer Bee still uses that read today. 

Another early on advantage of Zone was that if the receivers crossed ("pick" routes or "bunch" passing) the defenders did not cross with them.  They just took whoever entered their zone and the "pick" pass was eliminated.  My Killer Bee also uses this. 

Again, for lurkers, here's how the jargon works:

Cover 3:  This refers to the number of receivers you can cover deep.  Cover 3 has three deep defenders.  Why?  Because at the time most offenses could only put three receivers downfield.  So your three covered their three.  An "inverted Cover 3" plays the middle safety up closer than the two corners to keep him in the running game.  The weakness of Cover 3 is four deep receivers (spread).  Three cannot cover four. 

Cover 2: Cover 2 has two deep corners.  Some offenses ("full house") can only put two receivers deep or used a TE only as a blocker and not as a receiver so Cover 2 covered them while giving an extra run defender up front. Of course, if the offense got three deep that could be a problem but that usually meant a TE and the SS (biggest DB) was specifically assigned to follow him around on the field. 

Now my Killer Bee can be Cover 2, Cover 3 Prevent (the FS is now deeper than the corners), Cover 4, and even "Cover 5" (the "Nickle" defense) and it does it pretty much without any more thinking than Cover 3.  In today's youth football you might see wishbone, UBSW, DW, or spread and you need a defense that covers them all and knows what to do when they see it.  This latter part is important because if you're beating your opponent the odds are 50-50 he eventually breaks his formation, usually into the unexpected, hoping your surprised defense does not know what to do.

Killer Bee knows what to do.  In fact, Killer Bee is ahead of his thinking because no matter what he lines up in, every run and every pass will be covered. 

"Will be covered..."

We need to go into that.  In youth football you only need pass coverage for as far as the QB can throw.  How far is that?  Depending upon age, about 15-35 yards.  Whatever that distance is, your corners have to be able to get that deep as fast as the receiver they're covering. When that happens the receiver "will be covered".  Zone corners need not be fast to cover even a state sprint champion.  Zone corners are back far enough off the line to get a "head start" on that state sprint champion.  In Killer Bee,  your corner should still be with him 35 yards downfield regardless of his speed.  He may get beaten after that but the receiver will by then have outrun the QB's arm.  Killer Bee solves the problem of how deep to play the corner automatically and, if by chance he gets beat, gives him a one sentence instruction on how to correct so it doesn't happen again (KISS).

Another factor in "will be covered" is that offenses have come up with plays specifically designed for use against Zone.  The original, most popular plays, were these two:

Flood the Zone: Here the offense puts more receivers in a zone than it's one defender can cover.

Throwing between the Zones:  Many underneath Zone defenders (i.e. linebackers) will only play so deep.  As the receiver runs from his zone to another defender's zone, he will cease covering him and "hand him off" to the next zone's defender.  By throwing the ball between two zones (called the "seams") the receiver might actually be open before the next Zone defender can get there.

The problem with these types of passes is that they don't work against Man coverage.  I use this as my solution.

All Zone ultimately breaks down to Man.  At some point at the end of the play the receiver and defender are one on one requiring that you teach Man coverage anyway. Bill Mountjoy, a HS coach once on this site for quite a while, harped on that.  He felt that since you ultimately are in Man coverage anyway at the end of the play, you might as well start in it.  And, except for Bunch and pick passes, it's not bad advice.  However, I want to cover those "bunch" and "pick" passes so I teach what is called an "unwinding zone".  It starts in Zone and than switches to man as all do but, in my case, it does so before the end of the play.  This allows the "bunch" and "pick" passes to be covered by Zone but the "seam" and "flood" routes to be covered by Man.  It's the best of both worlds.  Indeed, Killer Bee uses overlapping Zones so anyone trying to throw between the zones is actually throwing into double coverage instead of none.

Now I didn't drop in on this exchange to tell these other coaches posting in this thread how to play Zone.  They all know how or they wouldn't have answered.  I'm responding to all those youth coaches out there who didn't post because they simply did not know what these posters were even talking about.  If you can't understand the exchange you learned NOTHING.  It was a waste of your time to even read.  I can make Zone so simple and easy you can teach it to a 7 year old in five minutes. 

Now!  There are drawbacks to Zone.  It's often hard to be in Zone and also blitz (exception: Zone blitz).  My DC46 which uses Man has forty different blitzes whereas my Killer Bee only about four (Although two can be automatic by read.).  Another drawback to Zone is that it requires COMMUNICATION.  One defender may ID who he's taking to an adjacent defender so that the other defender doesn't try and cover the same receiver he is after the shift to Man (leaving another receiver uncovered or what is referred to on TV as "blown coverage".).  This is done with a single word in Killer Bee and is actually a rare call as, most times, both defenders know who they have.

If this post of mine gets a lot of likes I'll repost it as a separate thread and take questions from beginners (not from the old timers).  I did not mean to hijack this thread.  They can carry on their debate without me.  I'm just here to help the "dum" coaches. 

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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jvcoach
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August 25, 2018 8:45 pm  

DC - The Bee is at the heart of it, but we were asked to coach the HS defense so we kind of married the two.  HS corners read #1 that is why we went with that otherwise we would have put more emphasis on spying #2 receiver.

Tito- We worked on watching the #2 and verbally passing off the #1.  We ran with one of our backups (other starter was on vacation) and things went really well for us.  We had 4 picks (2 for 6) today and our 1st team shut them out.  The back up kid had one of the pick 6s and played really tough today.  I am thinking the kid on vacation may have lost his spot.


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Coach Correa
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August 26, 2018 3:34 am  

DC - The Bee is at the heart of it, but we were asked to coach the HS defense so we kind of married the two.  HS corners read #1 that is why we went with that otherwise we would have put more emphasis on spying #2 receiver.

Tito- We worked on watching the #2 and verbally passing off the #1.  We ran with one of our backups (other starter was on vacation) and things went really well for us.  We had 4 picks (2 for 6) today and our 1st team shut them out.  The back up kid had one of the pick 6s and played really tough today.  I am thinking the kid on vacation may have lost his spot.

Thers many reasons why you read #2 and the core of it is because theres basically 3 route combos you may see and if you rep the shit out them your more than likely gonna see one of them most pass plays.

Head Coach Tito Correa New Britain Raiders 14-U


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blockandtackle
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August 26, 2018 7:35 am  

After many years of playing nothing but man coverage, our guys (12yo) are truggling to pick up the concept of playing the deep zone.  We've described it, walked through, modeled, etc. how they should play in zone yet they still want to find a guy close to them and just cover that one guy.  We have been repping it in coverage drills and live for three weeks now and only a couple of our guys seem to get it.

We will continue to rep it and hopefully it will eventually gel with them, but I would also appreciate any suggestions to get us there sooner than later.

Thanks

Some thoughts:

1.  Teach it as pure spot dropping since they're having such a hard time getting the concept.  They'll drop to a specific landmark on the field.  The landmarks you're going to teach are the top of the numbers, hashes, and MOF.  That's it.  For deep coverage, Cov. 3 would drop your 3 deep to the top of the numbers and MOF but get deep--as deep as the deepest receiver on their side.  The underneath coverage would have the flat players on the numbers and hook players on the hash.  Cov. 2 would put the 2 deep on the hashes, with 5 underneath on the numbers, hashes, and MOF.  That's it.  Explain to your deep coverage players that you're dividing the field in half in Cov. 2 and your deep player must be as deep as the deepest receiver on that half of the field.  In Cov. 3 you're dividing it into thirds-hash to sideline/hash to hash/hash to sideline and the 3 deep must be as deepest receiver on that side of the field.

2.  Teach them to read the end man on the line for run/pass, rather than a receiver.  They read the EMOL for run/pass, then they drop to their zone and read the QB's eyes to break on the ball when the QB's shoulder starts coming forward with the throw.

3.  Teach them to point at the two most dangerous receivers to their zone as they backpedal.  They need to get a feel for the idea they're not just picking some random guy to cover.

4.  How are you repping and drilling this in practice?  Make sure you do daily half-line pass skelly with them so you can really coach them up on what zone should look like and work.  If you see a kid break early or take the wrong guy, stop the drill and correct him.

5.  If you want to coach it the way the HS does it and they read #1... have you asked the HS coaches for guidance or watched how they teach it?  Is the HS even successful with the way they play it?  It's nice to be like the HS, but if that HS doesn't even know how to teach what they want to teach, it's probably not going to help you any.

One other little thought... to get a 4-4 look out of a 4-3, I find it works better and really simplifies things to walk up the FS on the weak side as your overhang rather than the SS.  Play the SS deep.  That allows the 3 LBs to not have to move as much or change their assignments.  Depending on who you have at those spots, you may want to switch those kids.


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DumCoach
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August 26, 2018 9:27 pm  

5.  If you want to coach it the way the HS does it and they read #1... have you asked the HS coaches for guidance or watched how they teach it?  Is the HS even successful with the way they play it?  It's nice to be like the HS, but if that HS doesn't even know how to teach what they want to teach, it's probably not going to help you any.

Out of curiosity, what is the reason to read #1?  He's going downfield run or pass.  Seems to me your read only tells you the ball was snapped.  ::)

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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ZACH
 ZACH
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August 27, 2018 4:58 am  

Thers many reasons why you read #2 and the core of it is because theres basically 3 route combos you may see and if you rep the shit out them your more than likely gonna see one of them most pass plays.

This

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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ZACH
 ZACH
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August 27, 2018 5:11 am  

After many years of playing nothing but man coverage, our guys (12yo) are truggling to pick up the concept of playing the deep zone.  We've described it, walked through, modeled, etc. how they should play in zone yet they still want to find a guy close to them and just cover that one guy.  We have been repping it in coverage drills and live for three weeks now and only a couple of our guys seem to get it.

We will continue to rep it and hopefully it will eventually gel with them, but I would also appreciate any suggestions to get us there sooner than later.

Thanks

Ive taught zone from 8yr to high school and we use the same ideas , might leave or include more with age.

1. We teach it backwards... we generically run cover 3 variations (match), most recent is quarters .  We show the area they are to protect,  then we teach run fits.

2. Once the spot drop is shown and run fits explained, we begin "pattern reading" or what we called for the 10s "player trading".

3. We use drills that incorporate the read progression. Eg a block shed into form up on a bag type of drill... might be a lb reading 2 to 1 and ripping to outside leverage on a tunnel screen .

4. Team pursuit, you have to emphasize team pursuit, everyones eyes should be from man to ball, man to ball so when that ball moves everyone should be moving as fast as possible toward it and demand it.  Far side corner has 3 secs to get to at least mid field on good pursuit angle on opposite side pass

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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Dusty Ol Fart
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August 27, 2018 7:16 am  

Rotate and Cap!  8)

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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Coach Correa
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August 27, 2018 2:18 pm  

Ive taught zone from 8yr to high school and we use the same ideas , might leave or include more with age.

1. We teach it backwards... we generically run cover 3 variations (match), most recent is quarters .  We show the area they are to protect,  then we teach run fits.

2. Once the spot drop is shown and run fits explained, we begin "pattern reading" or what we called for the 10s "player trading".

3. We use drills that incorporate the read progression. Eg a block shed into form up on a bag type of drill... might be a lb reading 2 to 1 and ripping to outside leverage on a tunnel screen .

4. Team pursuit, you have to emphasize team pursuit, everyones eyes should be from man to ball, man to ball so when that ball moves everyone should be moving as fast as possible toward it and demand it.  Far side corner has 3 secs to get to at least mid field on good pursuit angle on opposite side pass

Great points Zach !!!!!

Head Coach Tito Correa New Britain Raiders 14-U


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bigshel
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August 27, 2018 3:54 pm  

Can we please "sticky" this thread? There are some gold nuggets being dropped here.


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