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Jags10
(@jags10)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 111
November 14, 2018 4:45 am  

Hey coaches, it's been awhile for me posting here, but I was asked to help coach defense for a 10 yr old team this year. I came late to the game, starting in the week of their first game. Things have gone well, as they are playing for the area AYF championship Sunday and a trip to Florida. Since they started with a 4-4, but poorly ran, I slowly turned it into Coach Marsden's split 4-4 because 1) I think it's a good defense,although they're a tad young, 2) His manual is excellent, and 3) Most of all, I ran it before and know the major nuts and bolts.

It's been a work in progress, but the kids are getting better, just beating the only team to beat them 12-6 this past Sunday. This team scores at least 25-30 points a game. So, all that aside, Sunday we face the good old Single wing. In the spirit of the Split 4-4, we already morph to a 60 front/Wide Tackle 6 look in any double tight...which we have seen a lot of this year. I already pretty much have that and the associated shift given the unbalanced line. I also have Overshift/slant that I found here from Coach Mountjoy several years back.

My simple question is for those who use similar defenses, how you deal with the Nasty Split TE? and then maybe even when the wing is wider than usual. If no nasty, for the wing we use the 1) up to a yd- outside shoulder, 3 yds- head up, 5 yds-  back to a wide 9.  I'm just trying to see how others align/defend it. Thank you.


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Dusty Ol Fart
(@youth-coach)
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Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 7617
Illinois
Other
Club Admin
November 14, 2018 5:21 am  

Essentially you must identify who the block is coming from.  Does the Wing split with the TE or stay home?  If the Wing stays home you're kind of in No Mans Land (Which is why they do it).  To my thinking it becomes a "Crack" call from The FS if the Nasty comes down to block the EMOLOS.  That is generally a great indicator of where they are going. 

If you dont use the "Crack" call you're setting him up to be wiped out. 

I never chased the Wider Splits just made sure we were hitting our Gap responsibilities and penetrating to 1 yard behind the LOS. 

food for thought.

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  πŸ™‚


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17466
North Carolina
High School
November 14, 2018 1:55 pm  

how you deal with the Nasty Split TE?

We have run Nasty plenty of times, but I have never faced a team that did the same to us.

-Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Dusty Ol Fart
(@youth-coach)
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Joined: 8 years ago
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November 14, 2018 4:10 pm  

Essentially you must identify who the block is coming from.  Does the Wing split with the TE or stay home?  If the Wing stays home you're kind of in No Mans Land (Which is why they do it).  To my thinking it becomes a "Crack" call from The FS if the Nasty comes down to block the EMOLOS.  That is generally a great indicator of where they are going. 

If you dont use the "Crack" call you're setting him up to be wiped out. 

I never chased the Wider Splits just made sure we were hitting our Gap responsibilities and penetrating to 1 yard behind the LOS. 

food for thought.

I would add that there is no rule that says you cannot slant your front in that direction.....  πŸ˜‰

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  πŸ™‚


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ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 9406
Coach
November 15, 2018 4:58 am  

Reg nasty te, base rules apply. Olb aligns in a 7 tech slightly off the los, end widens  to not be able to get reached by the end

If open side has wide wing... base alignment off of emlos. Turn back to wing so he gets blocked in the back (penalty) or not at all

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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Jags10
(@jags10)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 111
November 15, 2018 5:20 am  

This is unbalanced, with the nasty split TE. I think slanting is a probability, most likely from that overshifted 6 Coach Mountjoy documented several years back.


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ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 9406
Coach
November 15, 2018 6:53 am  

------------m------m---
----5-w---0----5----s---9
------0-0-#-0-0-0---Y

------------m------m-----c
----5-w---0----5----s-------9
------0-0-#-0-0-0---Y
------------------------------H

------------m------m---------------c
----5-w---0----5----s---9
------0-0-#-0-0-0---Y
-----------------------------------H

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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Dusty Ol Fart
(@youth-coach)
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Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 7617
Illinois
Other
Club Admin
November 15, 2018 7:36 am  

------------m------m---
----5-w---0----5----s---9
------0-0-#-0-0-0---Y

------------m------m-----c
----5-w---0----5----s-------9
------0-0-#-0-0-0---Y
------------------------------H

------------m------m---------------c
----5-w---0----5----s---9
------0-0-#-0-0-0---Y
-----------------------------------H

My only change to this would be to Split The difference between the Y and H with the 9 in diagram # 2

πŸ˜‰

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  πŸ™‚


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Jags10
(@jags10)
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Posts: 111
November 16, 2018 5:42 am  

I like it, and for this particular team, I think I like #3. Thanks. πŸ™‚


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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Joined: 9 years ago
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3rd - 5th
Asst Coach
November 17, 2018 9:18 am  

How about unbalanced line with a nasty split outside tackle along w the end & WB on that side?


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DumCoach
(@dumcoach)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 8620
November 21, 2018 1:23 am  

My simple question is for those who use similar defenses, how you deal with the Nasty Split TE? and then maybe even when the wing is wider than usual. If no nasty, for the wing we use the 1) up to a yd- outside shoulder, 3 yds- head up, 5 yds-  back to a wide 9.  I'm just trying to see how others align/defend it. Thank you.

Didn't mean to high jack this thread but you're describing my own offense, the DC Wing T.  It looks like this:

      O      O O0O O  O
                    O                    O
              O  O

While there's no such thing as an offense that can't be defended, you raise two points difficult to defend.  The "nasty split" TE (red) and a WB aligned as a flanker (blue) create contradictions to the defense.  If one does not respond to the "nasty" TE and the DE aligns 1-2 yards outside him, the "off tackle" hole is open.  Defenses are often faced with doing this:

                            X
      O      O O0O O  O
                    O                    O
              O  O

A WT6 will do this routinely but others will actually have to move a defender to "C" gap.  For most WT6 defenses simply cross block the TE and RT and you'll have a hole big enough for the team bus to drive through (Dave Cisar will not concede defeat so easily but I doubt he's on your schedule.).  For teams that move a defender here, simply run or pass at the SPOT where they moved the defender from and the same huge hole will appear where he left.  The defense has simply moved the hole.

In DCWT the wing back (blue) aligns as a flanker and then motions towards the QB.  This creates three things.  First it creates SPEED in the WB as a runner left.  Second it creates MOMENTUM in the WB as a BLOCKER (think Crack).  Third, if the corner follows him (most WT6's) the coverage is MAN.  If the coverage is MAN and the corner follows the WB, then the corner is leaving EMPTY AREA behind him and it's an area of BIG, GREEN OPEN GRASS.  If you see a corner follow your WB then either RUN or THROW to the space he vacated.  HUGE YARDS.  If the corner only follows the WB as far as the TE, the coverage is ZONE.  If you see this, simply call a sprint pass to the TE side ("Pass Right") and the TE and the WB will FLOOD the corner's zone (One of the better ways to beat zone) with QB having RUN or PASS OPTION.  If the corner doesn't move at all to defend all that BIG, GREEN GRASS behind him simply hand off to the WB running left and leave that corner defending the wrong side of the field.

Most defenses are designed to cover the field.  All open areas are covered pre-snap.  As soon as the TE "nasty splits" he creates OPEN AREA, the problem the original poster noted.  And as soon as the WB motions and the corner follows, he creates OPEN AREA.  The original planned scheme is disrupted. 

DC Wing T works on a very simple principal.  RUN WHERE THEY AIN'T.  That means attack the OPEN AREA created by moving either the TE (or run off tackle if they don't) or the WB by putting him in motion from FL.  The differences between DCWT and Delaware are HUGE.  Here is Delaware:

O              O O 0 O O O
                        O          O
                  O    O       

There is no TE "nasty split" and so no threat.  The WB is in tight and so no threat.  Again, here is my formation:

      O      O O0O O  O
                    O                    O
              O  O

Not only does DCWT create a threatening TE and WB, but look at the SE on the left.  He's in WAY CLOSER than the Delaware SE.  In fact he's in SO CLOSE he's only FOUR STEPS outside LT.  That's only two steps wider than the TE.  But he's in a two point stance and half the weight of the TE.

The original reason to split out an SE was not to improve the passing game.  It was to improve the running game by allowing the QB an easier read of who had PITCH on OPTION.  To actually hit the Delaware wing T SE would be a bitch.  He's not only too far out for the throw but, if he ran an "out" route he'd run off the field and into the concession stand.  My SE can run an "Out" route without running off the field and, to shorten the throw, the QB runs sprint pass to his side, the exact same pass the QB runs to the TE side.  It's called "Pass Left #2".  To complete an out pass to the SE the QB only has to throw two steps further than completing an "out" to the TE.  I have increased the pass routes of my SE by 50% and ALL OF THEM WITH SHORTER THROWS.

But I have done more than this.  The weak side DE must decide where to line up.  An SE four steps outside his OT dictates how wide the DE can align outside the OT without being cracked by the SE.  To avoid the SE, he generally lines up tighter to the OT.  So while a "nasty split" TE moves the DE OUT (to run inside him), a tight SE actually moves the DE IN (to run outside him with the WB in motion or "jet sweep").  Jet Sweep from DCWT is a thing of beauty (The same as "off tackle").

But I have done more than this.    That same SE can now run reverse from the WB or counter from the QB.  So the SE now has 50% more pass plays, all with easier throws, but also two running plays.  The smallest, worst kid on your team now has FIVE PLAYS with which to score.  You'll never get that out of Delaware Wing T.  Very seldom does a defense assign coverage to your worst player and yet he has five different ways to score.  He'll end up looking pretty good.

At the youth level the odds of an opposing coach in the 10-12 year old bracket successfully defending just one of these formation challenges is 20%.  That he can defend two of the three is 5%.

Said my peace.  Carry one.

         

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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Monster
(@monster)
Gold
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1244
November 28, 2018 11:59 am  

I legitimately love it when Clarke hijacks a thread. He's one of the many coaches on here who I want to post more of their knowledge.

Mission Statement: To make a genuine effort at every opportunity to help those around me build and maintain a commitment to success.


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
Diamond
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 9516
New Jersey
3rd - 5th
Asst Coach
November 28, 2018 12:26 pm  

I legitimately love it when Clarke hijacks a thread. He's one of the many coaches on here who I want to post more of their knowledge.

And the price is right!  πŸ™‚


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Dusty Ol Fart
(@youth-coach)
Diamond
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 7617
Illinois
Other
Club Admin
November 28, 2018 3:47 pm  

Didn't mean to high jack this thread but you're describing my own offense, the DC Wing T.  It looks like this:

      O      O O0O O  O
                    O                    O
              O  O

While there's no such thing as an offense that can't be defended, you raise two points difficult to defend.  The "nasty split" TE (red) and a WB aligned as a flanker (blue) create contradictions to the defense.  If one does not respond to the "nasty" TE and the DE aligns 1-2 yards outside him, the "off tackle" hole is open.  Defenses are often faced with doing this:

                            X
      O      O O0O O  O
                    O                    O
              O  O

A WT6 will do this routinely but others will actually have to move a defender to "C" gap.  For most WT6 defenses simply cross block the TE and RT and you'll have a hole big enough for the team bus to drive through (Dave Cisar will not concede defeat so easily but I doubt he's on your schedule.).  For teams that move a defender here, simply run or pass at the SPOT where they moved the defender from and the same huge hole will appear where he left.  The defense has simply moved the hole.

In DCWT the wing back (blue) aligns as a flanker and then motions towards the QB.  This creates three things.  First it creates SPEED in the WB as a runner left.  Second it creates MOMENTUM in the WB as a BLOCKER (think Crack).  Third, if the corner follows him (most WT6's) the coverage is MAN.  If the coverage is MAN and the corner follows the WB, then the corner is leaving EMPTY AREA behind him and it's an area of BIG, GREEN OPEN GRASS.  If you see a corner follow your WB then either RUN or THROW to the space he vacated.  HUGE YARDS.  If the corner only follows the WB as far as the TE, the coverage is ZONE.  If you see this, simply call a sprint pass to the TE side ("Pass Right") and the TE and the WB will FLOOD the corner's zone (One of the better ways to beat zone) with QB having RUN or PASS OPTION.  If the corner doesn't move at all to defend all that BIG, GREEN GRASS behind him simply hand off to the WB running left and leave that corner defending the wrong side of the field.

Most defenses are designed to cover the field.  All open areas are covered pre-snap.  As soon as the TE "nasty splits" he creates OPEN AREA, the problem the original poster noted.  And as soon as the WB motions and the corner follows, he creates OPEN AREA.  The original planned scheme is disrupted. 

DC Wing T works on a very simple principal.  RUN WHERE THEY AIN'T.  That means attack the OPEN AREA created by moving either the TE (or run off tackle if they don't) or the WB by putting him in motion from FL.  The differences between DCWT and Delaware are HUGE.  Here is Delaware:

O              O O 0 O O O
                        O          O
                  O    O       

There is no TE "nasty split" and so no threat.  The WB is in tight and so no threat.  Again, here is my formation:

      O      O O0O O  O
                    O                    O
              O  O

Not only does DCWT create a threatening TE and WB, but look at the SE on the left.  He's in WAY CLOSER than the Delaware SE.  In fact he's in SO CLOSE he's only FOUR STEPS outside LT.  That's only two steps wider than the TE.  But he's in a two point stance and half the weight of the TE.

The original reason to split out an SE was not to improve the passing game.  It was to improve the running game by allowing the QB an easier read of who had PITCH on OPTION.  To actually hit the Delaware wing T SE would be a bitch.  He's not only too far out for the throw but, if he ran an "out" route he'd run off the field and into the concession stand.  My SE can run an "Out" route without running off the field and, to shorten the throw, the QB runs sprint pass to his side, the exact same pass the QB runs to the TE side.  It's called "Pass Left #2".  To complete an out pass to the SE the QB only has to throw two steps further than completing an "out" to the TE.  I have increased the pass routes of my SE by 50% and ALL OF THEM WITH SHORTER THROWS.

But I have done more than this.  The weak side DE must decide where to line up.  An SE four steps outside his OT dictates how wide the DE can align outside the OT without being cracked by the SE.  To avoid the SE, he generally lines up tighter to the OT.  So while a "nasty split" TE moves the DE OUT (to run inside him), a tight SE actually moves the DE IN (to run outside him with the WB in motion or "jet sweep").  Jet Sweep from DCWT is a thing of beauty (The same as "off tackle").

But I have done more than this.    That same SE can now run reverse from the WB or counter from the QB.  So the SE now has 50% more pass plays, all with easier throws, but also two running plays.  The smallest, worst kid on your team now has FIVE PLAYS with which to score.  You'll never get that out of Delaware Wing T.  Very seldom does a defense assign coverage to your worst player and yet he has five different ways to score.  He'll end up looking pretty good.

At the youth level the odds of an opposing coach in the 10-12 year old bracket successfully defending just one of these formation challenges is 20%.  That he can defend two of the three is 5%.

Said my peace.  Carry one.

       

Clark my friend.  You left out Jack's Defense.  Honest and True, I would love to see the DC Wing-T / Killer B against Jack's DW and 6-3!  Yes Sir, I'm that Confident it would make better viewing than the National Championship!    Kudo's  πŸ™‚ LOL

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  πŸ™‚


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DumCoach
(@dumcoach)
Diamond
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 8620
November 28, 2018 9:01 pm  

Clark my friend.  You left out Jack's Defense.  Honest and True, I would love to see the DC Wing-T / Killer B against Jack's DW and 6-3!  Yes Sir, I'm that Confident it would make better viewing than the National Championship!    Kudo's  πŸ™‚ LOL

Jack's 6-3 is best attacked by Option (And which he's least likely to see.).  Pretty rare for a six man front to cover QB.  The "Cover 3" also allows for you to throw "throwbacks" (Although he knows I found this and has included a solution which may, or may not, be coach-able by his followers.).  But I never designed my offense with Jack in mind.  I was facing 5-4's and 5-3's. 

Most "packaged" defenses for sale would give me trouble of some sort.  That's why they're for sale.  They work.  In fact, for other coaches to get space on this forum, they have to demonstrate they can beat me.  That's why I gave Jack space, Jr. Titan space, and Steve Calande space (My DCWT is stopped by my own DC46.).  They are competition.  I also believe Dave Cisar could give me a game. 

Yet not a one of them ever appeared on my schedule.  But your average Joe Blow did (And some were smart Joe Blow's).  For them I kept it real simple.  Run where they ain't.  If the corner follows the motion, there's green grass behind him.  If someone moves into the nasty split, wherever he moved from he left green grass behind him.  If the DE is crashing, go outside him to the green grass he left behind him (And always bait him cheese to go inside) and, if he's going up field to contain, run inside him to the green grass he left inside him and don't even block him (the "cheese").  Cross block an even front.  Midline an odd front.  Learn how to count the box but count it right (Not the way TV announcers do.). Simple rules that don't take much time to learn.  I once went through 70 teams in a tournament to win 1st place doing just that.  Did the same thing the next year in the same tournament to finish 2nd (And would have won 1st place if not overruled on the sideline.).

You mentioned my Killer Bee.  It was Jack that gave me the idea for it.  I had been penciling for TWO YEARS how to beat his 6-3.  Oh!  I came up with plays but not one single play I could run all day.  And he was doing this with MPP's.  By comparison my DC46 required talent.  Looking at what he had achieved versus the time I was spending on it, I suddenly got the idea that I should take his "D" and make it better.  So suddenly I had a six man front in my Killer Bee and if one Rover was good, why not use two?  And why bother covering Spread with Cover 3 when you can use Cover 4?  If Jack hadn't invented his 6-3, I never would have invented my Killer Bee.

"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."


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