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JustPlay
(@rjbthor)
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October 15, 2020 11:52 am  

Gents I am going to see if I can get a play put in for our playoff game. DP has called me out claiming I drive a station wagon and that can't carry a load 🤣 . I had asked him to review some game film and he kindly agreed but said in no uncertain terms it is crazy not to have a counter play when you run off tackle. So if you guys would kindly build me an off tackle play from this base formation i will see if I can get it into the HC brain to install this in practice tonight. I have my own ideas, but I think they maybe subpar as I am a spread guy that thinks power football is for those who have linemen.

 Thank you all for your brains.

nothing replaces effort. nothing replaces the mind. One with out the other is a waste of time.


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Prodigy
(@prodigy)
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October 15, 2020 2:08 pm  

First, being that I'm not coaching this season...I'd love to take whatever little knowledge I have and try to help.  Your photo is turned 90 degrees in the wrong direction, which makes trying to view it very challenging for everyone.  Secondly I can't make sense of what you have going on in your picture, it looks like an illegal formation to me because you've only got 6 guys on the line.  Next, what is the QB doing?  is he tossing?  is he handing off?  what is his path?

Finally...even if we did develop some face-melting counter based on what you're currently running...which I'm not sure that we can but IF...How effective do you think it's going to be when you haven't run it all season and you're trying to install it last minute for a playoff game?  Probably not a good idea but I'll play along anyhow.

 

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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Coyote
(@coyote)
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October 15, 2020 2:12 pm  

Hi Coach

If I'm reading your diagram correctly...   Tackle-Trap with strong-side tackle or TE coming back to the weak side, WB gets the ball inside hand-off.   Or, a Counter Trey bringing strong-side G & T to Kick out and lead to the backside, whichever back you favor... 

Down block w/ weak side G & T.
Strong-side G - Kick out the weakside DE
Strong-side T - lead up to 2nd level 

I like the WB for this, WB takes a deep step backward, let 2 & 3 backs fill fast for the G & T, then - having gained depth - time to take hand off from the QB.  QB deep reverse pivot and make like hand -off to the deep back, keep the ball and let the WB take as an inside hand-off.  

Hope this helps, 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Coyote

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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CoachSteel
(@coachsteel)
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October 15, 2020 2:39 pm  

 Yup! Coyote nailed it. Counter to the wing underneath is the way to go. Make sure the wing gets some depth into the backfield, things can get messy if you try and have him come down the line.

I don’t know if you would call it a counter, but another play off of this is a keeper with your QB. Have your QB reverse out and ride the fake from hip to hip and then keep it around the outside. If you are having success off tackle the contain man usually starts poking his head inside to help stop that off tackle run. The key is to have your QB really ride the fake to sell it. 


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JustPlay
(@rjbthor)
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October 15, 2020 2:57 pm  

@prodigy

Sorry aboubt the jpeg. Thanks for the fix. Receiver is on the line 10 yards out. QB always hands the ball off going into the hole, he doesnt not turn to hand off and then boots week side. I agree there is not alot of time to get this setup and run it smooth. The timing will be difficult to get down. Maybe by running the counter we can make the defense a step slower even if it was not effective?

@coyote thank you for the thought. I thought something similar, but you spelled it out much better.

 

 

nothing replaces effort. nothing replaces the mind. One with out the other is a waste of time.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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October 15, 2020 3:15 pm  

Never pass up an opportunity to get stupid.  Block it however you like.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Prodigy
(@prodigy)
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October 15, 2020 3:49 pm  

@rjbthor thank you for updating the photo.  So for your normal off-tackle play, the QB takes the snap, turns strong side and runs down the line where your 3-back leads and 2 back receives the handoff?  QB turns and runs boot to the weak side?

I'm not sure you're going to get much better than what @coyote recommended, but I hate it.  If you end up going with it, I hope it works but I'm skeptical.  Here's my criticism on this proposal for consideration and discussion:  your QB normal action for the off-tackle is down the line, right where those pullers need space so the QB is going to need more depth than usual otherwise he's going to get clobbered by the pullers.  Your WB is going to have a tremendous amount of lateral movement before he can even cross the LOS for positive yards.  The only situation where I'd call this play is if your opponent overloads your strong side to the point of it being an unsound defense that you see on the field...then it stands a chance.

I liked the mention of trap if you don't already have one.  I think what you're looking for is much like the Wing T counter trap.  Where it gets screwy is in your existing QB action. edit: you're also losing a blocker unless you move that receiver to weak side...which I also hate.  I've got OCD about things looking the same and not being the same.

 

 

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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October 15, 2020 4:45 pm  
Posted by: @rjbthor QB always hands the ball off going into the hole, he doesnt not turn to hand off and then boots week side.  

Got an English translation for this?

There are a lot of implementations of wing T, and this spring I posted here about the way I suggested the team I was coaching (which, however, isn't playing this fall) should do the QB footwork for the buck sweep and belly series.  We'd just like to know, in yours is he opening first facing where your 2 back is going, and the continuing the turn to face the back side of the play?  Or is he opening toward the back (boot) side and then shuffling straight back to hand to the 2 back?

Assuming he opens the way I like for these series (the first way described above, where he does a half turn to meet the 2 back), then the way to do the counter is as Coyote describes.  In the direction you have diagrammed, we'd have the RG trap behind the LG and C.  The 4 back gains just a little depth, and then the QB turns back for an inside handoff to him.

There are other possible counters (that we don't have) to the power action.  One is handback counter, in which the 2 back just takes baby steps in the direction he'd normally start running to follow the 3 back, then cuts toward the A gap on the side he came from, while the QB continues his turn and hands to him very much like he'd hand to the 3 back on trap.  You could run this sucker style (false trap) with the back side guard false pulling and the 2 back running to where he vacated, if the opponents are sophisticated enough to make that useful, or as a regular trap.

The best time to run these plays is against a 4-4 where both ILBs are keying your FB, and then in effect you're getting 2 for 1.  Worst time to run it is against a MLB who just sits there.  So scout those opposing LBs in game.  Don't rely on what you know of how they play against other opponents, because if you have an exceptional 3 back they may treat him differently.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Bob Goodman

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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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October 15, 2020 4:58 pm  
Posted by: @prodigy

@rjbthor thank you for updating the photo.  So for your normal off-tackle play, the QB takes the snap, turns strong side and runs down the line where your 3-back leads and 2 back receives the handoff?  QB turns and runs boot to the weak side?

I'm not sure you're going to get much better than what @coyote recommended, but I hate it.  If you end up going with it, I hope it works but I'm skeptical.  Here's my criticism on this proposal for consideration and discussion:  your QB normal action for the off-tackle is down the line, right where those pullers need space so the QB is going to need more depth than usual otherwise he's going to get clobbered by the pullers.  Your WB is going to have a tremendous amount of lateral movement before he can even cross the LOS for positive yards.  

If Prodigy's describing your QB action correctly, then the best "counter" I can think of would be a pass to your 4 back just beyond LB depth.


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JustPlay
(@rjbthor)
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October 15, 2020 6:21 pm  

Our QB goes sideways to the hole and hands off. He does not turn backward at all until the ball is gone.

nothing replaces effort. nothing replaces the mind. One with out the other is a waste of time.


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Prodigy
(@prodigy)
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October 15, 2020 6:22 pm  

I’ve been thinking about this more and I think i have the answer of what DP was talking about.

 

yes you need a counter and here it is

 

 

edit: guess nobody got a laugh out of my attempt at a joke.

 

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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JustPlay
(@rjbthor)
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October 15, 2020 6:25 pm  

thanks for the counters all. I wil let you know how well we do this in practice.

nothing replaces effort. nothing replaces the mind. One with out the other is a waste of time.


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ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
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October 15, 2020 8:34 pm  

The wing counter is a very good strong counter play to any lead or power type play.  I favor the wing counter but don't over the loo the power of the End counter. In dcwt it's right 56 kick I beleive.  No one expects it and is a once a game type play.  If you wanna run the counter play more the wing is best bet.

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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October 15, 2020 10:03 pm  
Posted by: @rjbthor

Our QB goes sideways to the hole and hands off. He does not turn backward at all until the ball is gone.

OK, then besides the pass play I mentioned above, the best counter for you, going by what you wrote and the diagram, would be a type of wing counter known as a scissors.  Same action by the QB, the guard starts pulling the same way but you trap the first DL on play side past center.  The 4 back doesn't gain much depth but just turns to face the QB.  The 3 and 4 back should nearly collide as they cross paths in the 1 back's face, and he hands inside to the 4 back running a slant into the hole that's made by the trap.  The 1 back continues by faking to the 2 back.

Hugh Wyatt discusses the scissors about a quarter of the way down this page, "A scissors play involves giving the ball, usually with an inside handoff) to a wingback (one set just off the line and just outside the widest tight linemen) running to the opposite side of the line after first faking an off-tackle or an outside play to the other backs." but the diagram shows it being run wider (like counter trey) than I think it should go for your purposes.  If you have a DL on the center's nose, you don't need to run it as a true trap, you can just double team the nose while the puller blocks out on whoever's next, whether you let him in or just double team him too with the tackle.  The latter might be safest to make sure the 4 back has space between the 1 back and the line.

I'll diagram this if I get a chance this weekend, too busy now.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Bob Goodman

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Prodigy
(@prodigy)
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October 15, 2020 11:01 pm  

@bob-goodman I actually agree with you on this.  The counter/trap looks best on paper based on what he has shared with us.

Heck, maybe some of this other stuff would work better on grass than I’m imagining but I feel like you lose a fair amount with this backfield action...and I sincerely believe that for a really effective counter or reverse play, the action should look the same and change at the last instant.

 

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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