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rpatric
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@32wedge

I feel your pain Nathan. So far I have myself and 1 other coach for next season. Maybe I should be less of a dick and people would want to coach with me. LOL


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @rpatric

 

It's like nails on a chalkboard. I've been around this game since a very young age and I learn something every day. I can confidently say, I don't know football

I'll be honest with you.  I know a great deal about what we do.  But what other teams do, not so much.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachSteel
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Posted by: @coachdp

What is a Coordinator on your staff responsible for, Coach Steel?

I have been OC the last 2 seasons. I’m responsible for installation of the offense, play calling and I coach the offensive line. I have another OL coach that helps me out so that if I need to peel off to another position group I can do so.

 


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CoachSteel
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I'd still like to know from Coach Steel how the possibility of combining staffs came up in the original question.

Sorry it took me so long to give an update. I think first I should give a little more of the back story. The coaches looking to potentially join have coached for years at another organization in the same town. One of the coaches, I have known for a long time and we are close friends, the other coaches are both guys that have coached for years and I respect as far as their coaching abilities. One of them has no kids playing and the other has a son that would be on the team. Their organization has gone through some changes in leadership recently that they aren’t particularly excited about, so they reached out to talk about a potential move. Since I have been with this staff the only real consistency we have had is the HC and myself. I do offense and he calls defense and takes care of the HC responsibilities. The majority of our ACs through the years have been Dads. Some have been ok but most of the time I feel like they havent wanted to put in the time to learn and are just looking for a sideline view to watch their kid while my HC and I do the heavy lifting. I am definitely apprehensive to potentially combine with another staff for all the reasons mentioned above. That’s why I posted in the first place, to get some perspective from guys that have done this before. The meeting we had was interesting. I think for the most part both staffs are willing to accommodate the other. My HC said he would be willing to give DC responsibilities to one of them so he can concentrate on HC stuff.  I think the only area where things can get sticky would be on the offensive side of the ball. Our schemes are polar opposite, I run the wing T with a little bit of Pro I stuff mixed in...they have experience with more single back/spread style. There were no commitments made at the meeting, it was just for both sides to feel each other out to see if it could possibly work. I’m honestly still on the fence as to what would be best. They’re reasonable guys but they have their opinions just like we do. In theory it seems like it could work, but coaches are strong personalities. I think we’re just weighing the options right now..Stronger staff w/more potential for head butting or a bunch of Dads that just want to watch from the sidelines. 


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @coachsteel

Their organization has gone through some changes in leadership recently that they aren’t particularly excited about, so they reached out to talk about a potential move.

--I'd be interested to know what changes they don't like.

The majority of our ACs through the years have been Dads. Some have been ok but most of the time I feel like they havent wanted to put in the time to learn and are just looking for a sideline view to watch their kid while my HC and I do the heavy lifting.

--I'm fine with that.  I don't want them doing any heavy lifting.  I need them to hold a bag and bring some snacks.  If they want to learn more, then I am all for it.  But I've long since accepted that dads are dads.

My HC said he would be willing to give DC responsibilities to one of them so he can concentrate on HC stuff.

--What HC stuff does he need to focus on where his DC responsibilities get in the way?  Unless he wants to be able to focus on a specific position, or Special Teams himself?

I think the only area where things can get sticky would be on the offensive side of the ball.

--Pay attention to red flags.  

Our schemes are polar opposite, I run the wing T with a little bit of Pro I stuff mixed in...they have experience with more single back/spread style.

--Uh oh.

There were no commitments made at the meeting, it was just for both sides to feel each other out to see if it could possibly work.

--How do they feel about your offensive scheme?  You need to ask and they need to tell.

They’re reasonable guys but they have their opinions just like we do. In theory it seems like it could work, but coaches are strong personalities.

--In 2005, I took on 5 coaches from 2 other org's and 1 coach from another team.  After that, I was fine coaching by myself.  lol

Stronger staff w/more potential for head butting or a bunch of Dads that just want to watch from the sidelines. 

--What position does the coach's son play?

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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Are you at all willing to run their Single Back/Spread?  Are they willing to run your Wing-T/Pro-I?  You need to find out.  

Regardless, I'd have them clinic you on their Single back/Spread.  You should be able to figure out in less than 2-3 minutes if they really know what they're talking about.  Give them a white board and markers and sit back & enjoy.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Seth54
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My club just experienced a situation like this. With one of the neighboring programs being shuttered last fall with Covid restrictions, we absorbed three coaches including the header. It went ok. We had some talent, and winning hides a lot of warts. There were definitely times when they were too many voices, but I think the saving grace was that we were not combining. They were coming to our club. That meant it was going to be our systems on offense and defense. We certainly incorporated some of their concepts, but we definitely said no to a few and it was clear who had final say. That said, they were times when I bordered on too many voices, and if we have not been so successful on the field, I could certainly see how things could get sideways quick


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mahonz
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@coachsteel

With only one coaches kid involved and you being good friends with one of them...doable. 

Maybe their crew takes the Defense and your crew takes the Offense. Mixture does ST's. Header has final say. 

 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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CoachSteel
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Posted by: @coachdp

Are you at all willing to run their Single Back/Spread?  Are they willing to run your Wing-T/Pro-I?  You need to find out.  

Regardless, I'd have them clinic you on their Single back/Spread.  You should be able to figure out in less than 2-3 minutes if they really know what they're talking about.  Give them a white board and markers and sit back & enjoy.

--Dave

 

I’m not willing to run the offense that they run for a lot of reasons. The biggest is it’s just not a scheme that I’m comfortable with teaching. They run a zone blocking scheme and although I have dabbled in learning this blocking scheme it’s just not what I know. I know the wing T down blocking scheme and that’s what I’ve always taught. That being said I am not opposed to running a pistol or shotgun style wing T offense, it just depends on the type of kids on the team and if it fits. If these coaches were to join our staff they would most likely have a following and we could potentially end up with more athletes on the roster than we’ve had in the past. I would be willing to spread things out a bit and get guys in space if it made sense, but ultimately the blocking scheme and core of the offense would still be Wing T based. 


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Coyote
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Posted by: @coachsteel

if it made sense,

Coaches, 

Kinda curious...  is there an experience-based consensus for or against hybrid offenses?   Not so much in terms of adding a little something that works to your Offense (like running your scheme from shot-gun when you've been under center) but in terms of combining two systems that call for different blocking, different techniques ...  that sort of thing?   At what point would it become too much for the kids to learn (Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none) when would it become counter productive?   

I'm thinking less about coaches ego's and such, than how much can the kids absorb in the practice time alotted and before it becomes confusing and diminishes the reps needed to master?  What would be lost in order to hybridize?  When does it begin to become a grab-bag offense? 

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @seth54

That said, they were times when I bordered on too many voices, and if we have not been so successful on the field, I could certainly see how things could get sideways quick

Ding! Ding! Ding! Your attention please....^

Great point.  EVEN WHEN YOU WIN, there were too many voices.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @coachsteel

I’m not willing to run the offense that they run for a lot of reasons. The biggest is it’s just not a scheme that I’m comfortable with teaching.

--Great reason. Too many guys think they have the knowledge/know how/experience to run any offense out there.

They run a zone blocking scheme and although I have dabbled in learning this blocking scheme it’s just not what I know.

--Besides, it's not a superior scheme.

If these coaches were to join our staff they would most likely have a following and we could potentially end up with more athletes on the roster than we’ve had in the past.

--Well, I figured there was something more to the story... 😉 

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @coyote

Coaches, 

Kinda curious...  is there an experience-based consensus for or against hybrid offenses? 

--I think more than 90% of the collegiate offenses out there are hybrid offenses.  A purely systematic offense usually has purely systematic ways to defend it.  Thus, OCs have to add hybridization. 

 Not so much in terms of adding a little something that works to your Offense (like running your scheme from shot-gun when you've been under center) but in terms of combining two systems that call for different blocking, different techniques ...  that sort of thing?

--Collegiately, plenty of offenses combine zone and gap schemes under the same umbrella.

At what point would it become too much for the kids to learn (Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none) when would it become counter productive?   

--It's do-able.  But the risk is what you've already said ("Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none").  The temptation is always to add to it, when you've become successful with your present offense.  It's a slippery slope.  In my experience, I'd rather be awesome at a few things than "okay" at a lot of things.  Oh sure, you can still get your 96-play, triple scheme-offense to work against the boatload of awful teams out there.  But sooner or later, you're going to end up against a bigger, more physical team that knows what they're doing and all 96 plays won't help you if you aren't great at any of them.  Being GREAT at something is hard, even when it's only 3-5 plays, but you have a much better chance to beat a quality opponent if you are.

I'm thinking less about coaches ego's and such, than how much can the kids absorb in the practice time alotted and before it becomes confusing and diminishes the reps needed to master?

--The greatest enemy of a youth coach is practice time.  Kids arriving late, missing practice, inclement weather, coaches arriving late....then add the fact that many youth practices are disorganized clusters...Just running an organized, EFFICIENT practice is a challenging skill to master.  Add to that teaching a variety of unrelated plays?  Recipe for disaster.  If you can't run your base play with high execution, you have no business moving on to other plays.  Problem is, most coaches can't recognize when their play is run well, or not.  Case in point, how many coaches celebrate after a TD is scored at a practice scrimmage, even though nobody blocked it well?  Most coaches seem to dictate their success of a Practice Play by the RESULT, not by the execution of the fundamentals.

What would be lost in order to hybridize?

--At the high school level, we are year-round in our teaching, with our access to players.  We have the time to indulge ourselves in an entire system of face-melter plays, both related and unrelated.  Whatever Tony Franklin has decided to sell us that's new and unused gets added to what we were doing before.  Youth teams don't have the T I M E.  Be great at simple math.  Be proud of it.  Don't try to impress with your own newly-invented mishmash of unoriginal plays with new names.

When does it begin to become a grab-bag offense? 

--Practically immediately.  A youth offense doesn't need a lot of adjustments when youth defenses themselves rarely adjust.  Do I have lot of of adjustments with our DW? Depends on who you ask.  Maybe.  But our formation changes are still the same ol' DW plays.  Our blocking changes are tagged adjustments that we can do because I'd spend 90% of my 2-hour practice with my offense line.  But even then, we'd rarely NEED to make adjustments in a game.  But in one of my clinics I suggest using those adjustments during the season EVEN IF YOU DON'T NEED THEM, because in a big game you may need that adjustment and if you've never used it (except for at practice), then you could be at a big disadvantage.

In youth ball, most block straight ahead, with little practice of technique and no tags and with a helper dad to keep them busy.  When you have that kind of "youth-approach" to your offensive line, those coaches will easily add "plays" because absolutely nothing has changed for their o-line that simply blocks straight ahead.

--Dave

 

This post was modified 1 month ago by CoachDP

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Coyote
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Posted by: @coyote

--I think more than 90% of the collegiate offenses out there are hybrid offense

n my experience, I'd rather be awesome at a few things than "okay" at a lot of things. 

Dave, thanks for input.... for the record I was thinking in terms of Youth league (in our case, we have two 2-hr practices a week to cover everything) - your input pretty much reflects my own thinking.  Esp. being good at a few things vs Okay at a lot of things. 

This post was modified 1 month ago by Coyote

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @coyote

for the record I was thinking in terms of Youth league (in our case, we have two 2-hr practices a week to cover everything) - your input pretty much reflects my own thinking.  Esp. being good at a few things vs Okay at a lot of things. 

Yeah, I get that.  But a lot of youth coaches think that they can do what the college coaches are doing.  What's more, they think they have reason to do so!

Problem is, 99% can't.  So then they claim they "had to dumb down the offense" because their players can't pick it up.  First of all, when they "dumbed down the offense," they're no longer running the offense that they're claiming to run.  In addition, the "dumbing down" had to take place because the offense was too complex for the coach to understand, let alone how to teach it.  In addition, there's no need to run a college offense when you aren't playing against college teams.  So what does that make the Double Wing?  To me, it's an offense.  Not a youth offense or a high school offense.  It's an offense that I used to be successful with the age group I'm coaching.  My differences in how we teach this offense (at youth as opposed to high school) primarily concerns how deeply we go into the playbook; not how sophisticated we run it.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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