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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17469
North Carolina
High School
September 13, 2012 8:33 am  

It's no fun trying to install something when no one else gets it or cares to get it.

Stu, what are your priorities?  Why are you out there?

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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coachstu
(@coachstu)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1354
September 13, 2012 8:47 am  

Stu, what are your priorities?  Why are you out there?

--Dave

My priorities, with this particular team, is to win.  That's #1.  That's what they need to learn and it's what they need to demand of themselves.  Don't read that the wrong way...Winning encompasses a lot of things with this group.

Second, as this is the first year many of these kids have ever sat the bench, is to teach these kids how to be a good teammate, even when you're not the starter.  I reckon that's why I decided to hang around and help make them better.  At the end of the day, I'll follow the same advice I gave my kids.  It doesn't get rid of the frustration I have with the lack of preparation.  It's an issue that needs to be addressed.  But I'm no longer in a position to address it.

I am out there because I enjoy working with kids.  I enjoy competing, and enjoy helping kids learn how to compete.  And as a coach, I feel like it's my job to get them in the best position to compete. 


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coachstu
(@coachstu)
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Posts: 1354
September 14, 2012 5:42 am  

Just an update.  Had my second day of running scout teams.  I actually enjoy it a lot.  We absolutely shredded our defense last night with belly dives and option pitches off of those dives.  Pop passes and swing passes were wide open.  Heck, at one point I let my scout team QB run things and he was dealing.

I don't mind the role I have now but for the fact that the problems I expose won't get corrected.  I'm in a bad spot.  I know exactly what our defense is doing wrong and I can't say anything.  We had a great defense, and now we don't.  The reason is simple.  HC, who is now running the defense does not know how to identify the strong side.  Our players do.  They were taught that early on.  He now has them confused.  We are walking the SS up on the weak side.  Which means our base line slants are wrong, the will and sam backers are on the wrong side, and the monster backer is on the wrong side.  Which in turns means our pass coverage rules are all wrong.  Sam backer is on weak side, dropping short middle and no one has the flats.  I threw swing passes and fullback flares out there all night last night.  Finally, they yell at the D-end that he's supposed to cover the flats, which is wrong, and I just had the QB roll out strong side and run because D-end was tracking tailback.

After all that, the other coaches' discussion was not that the reads and pass coverages aren't right, but that our problem is we need more kids on the line.  So it looks like we're going to now run a Wide Tackle 6. 

I'm not being a whiner as someone above suggested.  This is fundamental stuff.  I'd like to help this team win.  This stuff bothers me a lot.  I can't talk to anyone about it so I'm talking to you guys.  Right now, I'm inclined to make one more attempt to talk to HC, very diplomatically, bring my dry erase board, and see if he'll listen.  It hurts knowing we're not giving our kids the best chance at winning.

BTW, the last two night are two of the funnest I've had all season. 


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Loftdawg
(@loftdawg)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 82
September 14, 2012 5:55 am  

Right now, I'm inclined to make one more attempt to talk to HC, very diplomatically, bring my dry erase board, and see if he'll listen. 

Stu,

I sympathize with you but if you go the route above, you will likely be asked to leave the team completely which will take you away from your son's last season of football.

I know because I dismissed a good coach who couldn't get on board with what I was doing earlier this year.  Different situation, he was a head coach prior and couldn't get over the fact that I was going to do things differently than he would. We would have been fine but he never got out of my ear (or off my e-mail) and I couldn't both defend my approach to coaching AND coach the team at the same time.

You've had your say. He's made a different decision. You obviously know a lot and take a lot of pride in the defense you had built. But you have to let that go and just enjoy the role you have now and enjoy the time with your son or you risk losing that as well.

Just my .02 from a head coach's perspective. I'm pulling for you and hope it all works out.

Loftdawg


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coachstu
(@coachstu)
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Posts: 1354
September 14, 2012 6:08 am  

Stu,

I sympathize with you but if you go the route above, you will likely be asked to leave the team completely which will take you away from your son's last season of football.

I know because I dismissed a good coach who couldn't get on board with what I was doing earlier this year.  Different situation, he was a head coach prior and couldn't get over the fact that I was going to do things differently than he would. We would have been fine but he never got out of my ear (or off my e-mail) and I couldn't both defend my approach to coaching AND coach the team at the same time.

You've had your say. He's made a different decision. You obviously know a lot and take a lot of pride in the defense you had built. But you have to let that go and just enjoy the role you have now and enjoy the time with your son or you risk losing that as well.

Just my .02 from a head coach's perspective. I'm pulling for you and hope it all works out.

Loftdawg

I appreciate that dawg.  And you're probably spot on correct.  Something I gotta think about.  I keep hoping at least one of these coaches will read some material on the 5-2 and figure it out.

It kills me when ACs are telling our ends to pursue the ball on the offensive side of the ball.  I ran fake fullback dive toss sweeps 4 times in a row and all went to the house.  And all ACs can offer for advice to our D-end is "move faster".  The kid is totally confused and no one is reminding him of his keys.

In the end, I think you're right.  Just have faith they'll figure it out. 


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Mosley the Cat
(@mosleythecat)
Silver Admin
Joined: 151 years ago
Posts: 876
Maryland
September 14, 2012 6:46 am  

Stu,

This sounds similar to the situation I found myself in last year. A successful season at OC in 2010; learned even more about offense from this site in the off-season; came into 2011 expecting the same control I had before; told I couldn't run DCWT with reverse pivot, teaching GOL, SE that close in, etc; told I was to call plays though, even though I wasn't comfortable with the plays he put in; I offered to step down as OC and continue to help where I could; he refused; four games in and he states to all that he is taking over the offense.

At this point, I am feeling like you. He is willing to listen to anyone but me. I am depressed. September and October suck. In the end our relationship (which we had for just a short time) soured even though we had agreed it wouldn't affect things. That doesn't bother me too much as he is not the type of person I enjoy, admire, or have respect for (for other reasons). We just got along because of football.

What I learned - 1) he sucks  2) I handled it all wrong, even though I thought I was handling it right

I know you're dying inside when you see good work go to shit. Just let it go and do the best with what you're assigned to do. Yes, the kids are going to be confused and it might not be the best year for them. Next year, try to get your own gig, or work with someone who respects all the work you are putting into it.  Time will show the true colors.

I asked for my own team this year. We only had enough kids for two teams, so I opted to assist with the Rec coach who is well-respected as being a laid back type. I offered him the DCWT before the season started, and he said he likes to call the plays and choose his offense based on what he has. I told him no problem, and that I will help out wherever. I offered up JJ's 33 Stack, and he said that maybe we'll look at it. I said okay. He sets up a 5-3 during the first three weeks, but never really covers defense at all. I figure out that he is focusing all on offense for right now.  Week four starts and he comes up halfway through practice, tells me to take a certain set of kids and teach them the Stacks. I am ecstatic.  We scrimmage the next night and the results blew the other coaches' minds. HC is very nonchalant about everything, but he is happy.

We are continuing to run the defense, and having success. He coaches the Cover group, and he sometimes tweaks JJ's stuff to fit conventional thinking. I begin to feel that heat rising inside. Why can't he just leave it alone! But....I take a step back and let it slide. Everything works out fine.

I have spent hundreds of hours learning this stuff. I feel I have knowledge coming out my ears, but I know my experience is lacking.

Please take my advice and let him run the team how he wants. Do the best job you can and be cordial, respectful, and keep everything else to yourself. It will be tough. You don't have to point out his faults. People will see them soon enough. Find another football guy to commiserate with privately. One you trust. You don't want to come out of this looking like the sour grapes guy. Start new next year.

I didn't handle this situation the best way last year, and luckily I saw that afterwards and admitted to it. He was at fault, but I was too.  The passion is hard to stifle sometimes, but sometimes the situation demands it. Otherwise the fire will consume you.

Don't cross my path.


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coachmiket
(@coachmiket)
Gold
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1371
September 14, 2012 6:50 am  

Just an update.  Had my second day of running scout teams.  I actually enjoy it a lot.  We absolutely shredded our defense last night with belly dives and option pitches off of those dives.  Pop passes and swing passes were wide open.  Heck, at one point I let my scout team QB run things and he was dealing.

I don't mind the role I have now but for the fact that the problems I expose won't get corrected.  I'm in a bad spot.  I know exactly what our defense is doing wrong and I can't say anything.  We had a great defense, and now we don't.  The reason is simple.  HC, who is now running the defense does not know how to identify the strong side.  Our players do.  They were taught that early on.  He now has them confused.  We are walking the SS up on the weak side.  Which means our base line slants are wrong, the will and sam backers are on the wrong side, and the monster backer is on the wrong side.  Which in turns means our pass coverage rules are all wrong.  Sam backer is on weak side, dropping short middle and no one has the flats.  I threw swing passes and fullback flares out there all night last night.  Finally, they yell at the D-end that he's supposed to cover the flats, which is wrong, and I just had the QB roll out strong side and run because D-end was tracking tailback.

After all that, the other coaches' discussion was not that the reads and pass coverages aren't right, but that our problem is we need more kids on the line.  So it looks like we're going to now run a Wide Tackle 6. 

I'm not being a whiner as someone above suggested.  This is fundamental stuff.  I'd like to help this team win.  This stuff bothers me a lot.  I can't talk to anyone about it so I'm talking to you guys.  Right now, I'm inclined to make one more attempt to talk to HC, very diplomatically, bring my dry erase board, and see if he'll listen.  It hurts knowing we're not giving our kids the best chance at winning.

BTW, the last two night are two of the funnest I've had all season.

Are these plays you are running with the scout O things that your opponents are going to be running?  Or do you even know what the opponent will be running?

Or are you just running plays that you know will beat the defense at this point?


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 22981
September 14, 2012 6:58 am  

Stu,

This sounds similar to the situation I found myself in last year. A successful season at OC in 2010; learned even more about offense from this site in the off-season; came into 2011 expecting the same control I had before; told I couldn't run DCWT with reverse pivot, teaching GOL, SE that close in, etc; told I was to call plays though, even though I wasn't comfortable with the plays he put in; I offered to step down as OC and continue to help where I could; he refused; four games in and he states to all that he is taking over the offense.

At this point, I am feeling like you. He is willing to listen to anyone but me. I am depressed. September and October suck. In the end our relationship (which we had for just a short time) soured even though we had agreed it wouldn't affect things. That doesn't bother me too much as he is not the type of person I enjoy, admire, or have respect for (for other reasons). We just got along because of football.

What I learned - 1) he sucks  2) I handled it all wrong, even though I thought I was handling it right

I know you're dying inside when you see good work go to shit. Just let it go and do the best with what you're assigned to do. Yes, the kids are going to be confused and it might not be the best year for them. Next year, try to get your own gig, or work with someone who respects all the work you are putting into it.  Time will show the true colors.

I asked for my own team this year. We only had enough kids for two teams, so I opted to assist with the Rec coach who is well-respected as being a laid back type. I offered him the DCWT before the season started, and he said he likes to call the plays and choose his offense based on what he has. I told him no problem, and that I will help out wherever. I offered up JJ's 33 Stack, and he said that maybe we'll look at it. I said okay. He sets up a 5-3 during the first three weeks, but never really covers defense at all. I figure out that he is focusing all on offense for right now.  Week four starts and he comes up halfway through practice, tells me to take a certain set of kids and teach them the Stacks. I am ecstatic.  We scrimmage the next night and the results blew the other coaches' minds. HC is very nonchalant about everything, but he is happy.

We are continuing to run the defense, and having success. He coaches the Cover group, and he sometimes tweaks JJ's stuff to fit conventional thinking. I begin to feel that heat rising inside. Why can't he just leave it alone! But....I take a step back and let it slide. Everything works out fine.

I have spent hundreds of hours learning this stuff. I feel I have knowledge coming out my ears, but I know my experience is lacking.

Please take my advice and let him run the team how he wants. Do the best job you can and be cordial, respectful, and keep everything else to yourself. It will be tough. You don't have to point out his faults. People will see them soon enough. Find another football guy to commiserate with privately. One you trust. You don't want to come out of this looking like the sour grapes guy. Start new next year.

I didn't handle this situation the best way last year, and luckily I saw that afterwards and admitted to it. He was at fault, but I was too.  The passion is hard to stifle sometimes, but sometimes the situation demands it. Otherwise the fire will consume you.

Cat

Great post. Thank you for this. Very well said.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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coachstu
(@coachstu)
Gold
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1354
September 14, 2012 7:02 am  

Stu,

This sounds similar to the situation I found myself in last year. A successful season at OC in 2010; learned even more about offense from this site in the off-season; came into 2011 expecting the same control I had before; told I couldn't run DCWT with reverse pivot, teaching GOL, SE that close in, etc; told I was to call plays though, even though I wasn't comfortable with the plays he put in; I offered to step down as OC and continue to help where I could; he refused; four games in and he states to all that he is taking over the offense.

At this point, I am feeling like you. He is willing to listen to anyone but me. I am depressed. September and October suck. In the end our relationship (which we had for just a short time) soured even though we had agreed it wouldn't affect things. That doesn't bother me too much as he is not the type of person I enjoy, admire, or have respect for (for other reasons). We just got along because of football.

What I learned - 1) he sucks  2) I handled it all wrong, even though I thought I was handling it right

I know you're dying inside when you see good work go to shit. Just let it go and do the best with what you're assigned to do. Yes, the kids are going to be confused and it might not be the best year for them. Next year, try to get your own gig, or work with someone who respects all the work you are putting into it.  Time will show the true colors.

I asked for my own team this year. We only had enough kids for two teams, so I opted to assist with the Rec coach who is well-respected as being a laid back type. I offered him the DCWT before the season started, and he said he likes to call the plays and choose his offense based on what he has. I told him no problem, and that I will help out wherever. I offered up JJ's 33 Stack, and he said that maybe we'll look at it. I said okay. He sets up a 5-3 during the first three weeks, but never really covers defense at all. I figure out that he is focusing all on offense for right now.  Week four starts and he comes up halfway through practice, tells me to take a certain set of kids and teach them the Stacks. I am ecstatic.  We scrimmage the next night and the results blew the other coaches' minds. HC is very nonchalant about everything, but he is happy.

We are continuing to run the defense, and having success. He coaches the Cover group, and he sometimes tweaks JJ's stuff to fit conventional thinking. I begin to feel that heat rising inside. Why can't he just leave it alone! But....I take a step back and let it slide. Everything works out fine.

I have spent hundreds of hours learning this stuff. I feel I have knowledge coming out my ears, but I know my experience is lacking.

Please take my advice and let him run the team how he wants. Do the best job you can and be cordial, respectful, and keep everything else to yourself. It will be tough. You don't have to point out his faults. People will see them soon enough. Find another football guy to commiserate with privately. One you trust. You don't want to come out of this looking like the sour grapes guy. Start new next year.

I didn't handle this situation the best way last year, and luckily I saw that afterwards and admitted to it. He was at fault, but I was too.  The passion is hard to stifle sometimes, but sometimes the situation demands it. Otherwise the fire will consume you.

Mosely  -- I really appreciate this post.  Sounds like you went through exactly what I'm going through.  I'm working real hard to do as you say.  And you're right.  It's hard.  I sat there Tuesday and just thought how and the hell do I stand out here for 10 hours a week watching this?  I focus on the talks I have with my son before and after practice.  He still practices, but he has to spend about an hour before practice just to get his foot ready, and another hour after practice icing and stretching.  We talk football.  He told me last night that the kids were talking at school about how I should be running the defense.  And they're wondering what they did wrong. 

I'm looking hard for another coach out there that really puts the time in to learn the game.  It doesn't matter to me about control.  I just want to coach with someone who knows the game.  I'll do whatever they ask me.  There's a few of them out there.  I've had offers in the past to either HC or AC other teams.  Never took them because I was committed to the kids I've been with for 5 years now.  9th grade coach calls me all the time to talk defense.  That team's not really an option though.  They're forced to run what the high school runs.  That's great if it fits your kids.  If not, it makes for a long season. 

I know your advice is good advice.  And I know I should follow it.  I just hope I can. 


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coachstu
(@coachstu)
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Posts: 1354
September 14, 2012 7:11 am  

Are these plays you are running with the scout O things that your opponents are going to be running?  Or do you even know what the opponent will be running?

Or are you just running plays that you know will beat the defense at this point?

It's kinda cool.  Our next opponent runs a Wing I just like we do.  Frankly, they're terrible.  I run what they run, what I've seen them try to run, and mix in a few things that expose our defense.  Just so you know, when I got demoted, HC's spin on it was "you're good at knowing what other teams do and I want you to mix in some things that keep us on our toes".  So, yeah, I run their offense.  But I also free lance in the huddle to expose our, what are at this point, very obvious weaknesses.  Even ran some Wing T last night because that's what we see in 2 weeks. 


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Coach Smyly
(@coach-smyly)
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Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 8
September 14, 2012 7:40 am  

When you say calling the strength wrong what do you mean by that? People call strengths differently

Smyly


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coachstu
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Posts: 1354
September 14, 2012 7:59 am  

When you say calling the strength wrong what do you mean by that? People call strengths differently

I understand what you mean, but in this instance, we're talking about the tight end side vs. wing back side.  And frankly, I don't care how he calls it.  But it needs to be in sync with the line slants and where he's assigning the Will and Sam backers.  You can't put the Sam backer weak, give him short middle zone coverage, and then expect the flats to be covered.  Long story short, even if HC was right, it's completely bass ackwards from what we've spent the last 6 weeks coaching and even if he was right, he'd still be coaching the exact same defense we've already been running.  If that sounds confusing, it's because it is.   

Strong side?

O            O O C O O O
            O      O
                    O
                    O 


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Coach Smyly
(@coach-smyly)
Copper
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 8
September 14, 2012 8:10 am  

But why? Do you know what he is trying to do? And as far as the strength call to that I would call it to the wide side of the field. Maybe even to the wing depending on how you align to a wing back.  Wing backs normally have better angles than tight ends do.

Smyly


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coachstu
(@coachstu)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1354
September 14, 2012 8:22 am  

But why? Do you know what he is trying to do? And as far as the strength call to that I would call it to the wide side of the field. Maybe even to the wing depending on how you align to a wing back.  Wing backs normally have better angles than tight ends do.

he's trying to run a 5-2 monster.  We already run a 5-3 with shifting backers so it is in effect a 5-2 monster.  The kids know it and play it well.  There's a few reasons I think he's doing what he's doing.  None of anything to do directly with what's best for the team.  Again, it's no so much a scheme thing, it's a knowing the damn scheme thing.

Personally, I'd play that formation something like this. 

                                  X
            X                       
X                X    X    X   
          X  X    X    X      X 
O            O O C O O O
            O      O
                    O
                    O

HC is playing it like this, but has the backer on the tight end side dropping short middle on pass and the nose slanting to the wing back side.  Also has that backer keying the fullback.  So one false step by your D-end on a fake FB dive and that tailback takes it to the house on a sweep.

      X                     
                                  X 
X      X      X    X       
          X  X    X    X      X 
O            O O C O O O
            O      O
                    O
                    O


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Coach Smyly
(@coach-smyly)
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Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 8
September 14, 2012 11:08 am  

It really is no different. If the backer and safety play it right then it should be fine.  Safety is force and backer scrapes.  By the the rest of the defense should be able to catch up. Plus you are a guy from the inside that knows how to exploit the d. The opposition may not figure it out until its to late.  Every defense has a weakness

Smyly


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