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Prodigy
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October 14, 2020 10:43 am  

@gumby_in_co
I guess it qualifies.  Twin cannons is a winner.

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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CoachDP
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October 14, 2020 10:45 am  

There are obviously a ton of teaching points in a drill that can take as long as this one.  Like much of what we do, I've seen it butchered by coaches who are just looking for collision and have no knowledge of how to teach tackling or safety, which is why I've pretty much given up on talking about this online.  There are several SAFETY maneuvers that MUST be employed in this drill.  The shield MUST cover the bottom of the Tacklee's face or he is vulnerable to a bloody chin or nose.  Also, the Tacklee MUST turn his head to the side so that his shield won't hit him in the nose.  The Tacklee should be in a standing position at Fit, a football-ready position at 1 & 3, and almost a baseball Catcher's crouch at 5.  This is in both the full-pad and no-pad versions.  Each adjustment to his stance will give him more protection when he falls backward.  The Catcher's Crouch gives the benefit of being a LOW target for the Tackler.  The Tacklee MUST have BOTH arms threaded through the stirrup handles of his shield before taking contact at Fit, 1/3/5.  This makes sure that he can not use his arm to brace his fall when he topples back on to the bed of shields.  The coach must make sure he has visual evidence that BOTH arms are through BOTH loops.  Do NOT just ask or tell the Tacklee.  The coach must SEE it.  Do not allow the Tacklee to hold the left handle with the left hand and the right handle with the right hand, without his arms going through the loops.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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October 14, 2020 11:06 am  
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
When we start most seasons, we have a mandatory 3-practice conditioning period where contact of any kind isn't allowed. Due to the pandemic, this rule was lifted because . . . reasons?

I always had to quantify and argue what was or wasn't "contact."  In the end though, I always got what I wanted because it was so easy to poke holes in their arguments against contact.  Just like your "lifting the rule" this year because of the pandemic, I'd be all over that one from now on.  What a joke.  League commissioners always hated me because it was so simple for me to show them their own stupidity.  The biggest difference between me and other coaches in our league (in that regard) was that I was willing to fight/argue/fight/argue/fight/argue valid points...and they weren't.  They'd just accept whatever bogus, invented "rule" that the League Idiot came up with.

One year, we were told there was to be "no contact" before we received uniforms/pads/equipment.  So we practiced for a week with "no contact."  After that week, we were distributed uniforms/pads/equipment over the weekend.  When we came back to practice on the following Monday, all our other teams were in full gear, while we were still in shorts & t-shirts.  We proceeded to have a full-contact practice.  When our commish told me, "The rule states that you can't have contact until you've received full gear," I told him, "We've already received it.  You were there when we got it.  And since we've already received our gear, the rule states that we can now have full contact; which is what we are doing."  I eventually got him to understand that the no pads/full-contact transition to full pads/full-contact was safer and more effective.

--Dave 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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October 14, 2020 11:33 am  

"One" of the problems with laying out drills to develop a certain fundamental is that coaches often don't understand what each step is designed to do.  So instead of layering techniques, they just drop their players in the deep end of the pool and say, "Swim."  Layering techniques is the best way for anyone to learn anything.  "Layering" allows the player to learn an integral fundamental while preparing the player for the next level of the fundamental.  I've seen coaches (of players age 7-9) start a "tackling drill" where they had players in two long lines 🙄, with two players facing off against each other from a distance of five yards away 🙄, expecting them to run straight into each other 🙄.  And when the two players gave the (inevitable) result (of failure), they were yelled at, and then made to go again from an even further distance.  The ridiculousness of this scenario would rival a 1st Grade math teacher who, on the first day of school, gave out multiplication and division problems and when students couldn't perform them correctly, yelled at them, and were then given calculus problems.  

So many coaches don't seem to understand the "how to get there."  Their own statements of "I know football" are seemingly based on "they know what the result should look like," but with absolutely no comprehension of how to make that happen.  And since they don't know how to make it happen, their players don't know how to make it happen, either.  They equate their child's poor performance in math because their child doesn't do their math homework; when the real issue is their child doesn't do their math homework because he/she doesn't understand how to do the math.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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October 14, 2020 2:47 pm  
Posted by: @prodigy I guess it qualifies.  Twin cannons is a winner.

Our Bullet Drill is another that can be used in conjunction with "The Executioner" and "Twin Cannons."  The Bullet Drill's value comes in it getting the tackler a lot of reps over a very short period of time, as opposed to the usual 1 attempt/1 tackle approach, where the player doesn't get another opportunity until the rest of the team has rotated through.  That whole "1 tackle per hour" mentality doesn't help anyone get better at anything.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Prodigy
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October 14, 2020 3:08 pm  

@coachdp I'm not sure I'm familiar with the bullet drill...maybe I am.  I simply found quite a bit of value in how you taught hitting (tackling).  I'm a huge believer in doing a ton of work without pads.  As I mentioned previously, I'm not sure of how it might go if you had to go back to square one with a player who got "left behind" when it came to hitting.  I'd also be really curious to see how it would go if you took a team who was 4 weeks in and stripped them back down to just shells and pants and ran them through the CoachDP progression.  Would it be enough to overcome whatever reservations and fears that they've accumulated over the past 4 weeks of pads?

 

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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Prodigy
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October 14, 2020 3:10 pm  

@coachdp also - I made a bet with Gumby about how much you'd share about your progression publicly - for the reasons you just outlined.  He won.  I didn't expect that you were going to put it out there and who better to speak to it than the man himself.

 

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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CoachDP
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October 14, 2020 4:09 pm  
Posted by: @prodigy

@coachdp I'm not sure I'm familiar with the bullet drill...maybe I am. 

--There's not a PowerPoint for it, but it's a close-quarter tackling drill where the Tackler tackles the Tacklee 3-5 times in rapid succession.  Focus is on the Tackler resetting and immediately going again.  Since it's close-quarters, it's very safe and gets the Tackler used to contact and over the fear quickly, after our P.A.I.N! progression has been taught.  The Tacklee can be a ball-carrier or a shield-holder.  Taught in a loud, combative and intense manner, the Tackler doesn't have time to address his insecurity concerns.  In much the same way as hitting and driving a sled and re-setting, our Bullet Drill would be the tackling version of this.

I simply found quite a bit of value in how you taught hitting (tackling).  I'm a huge believer in doing a ton of work without pads. 

--It is the fastest and safest way to get players to transition over to hitting live and full-speed in full gear.  It's interesting that the "no-contact before pads" idiots legalize putting full gear on kids with no experience and lining them up to crash into each other like it's a demolition derby.  But teach them contact in a safer and more controlled way?  Forget it.

As I mentioned previously, I'm not sure of how it might go if you had to go back to square one with a player who got "left behind" when it came to hitting. 

--It's one reason that MY late arrivals always had to go back through the entire physicality training and conditioning, regardless of how late they arrived.  Even if the season were 3 games old, a late sign-up was going to be learning our approach to conditioning, effort and physicality before he ever played a game with us.  

I'd also be really curious to see how it would go if you took a team who was 4 weeks in and stripped them back down to just shells and pants and ran them through the CoachDP progression.  Would it be enough to overcome whatever reservations and fears that they've accumulated over the past 4 weeks of pads?

--In my experience, it's hard to teach a puppy to go on the paper, when he's already lived in the house for 2 months peeing, pooping and chewing up socks when and wherever he wanted.  At the same time, we've had some drills translate very well late into the season, when I was given the opportunity to apply them.  (The Mind$#@& Drill is a good example.  I installed that drill with a team 3 weeks into their game season and they jumped offside only once for the rest of the season.)  However, the typical problem usually comes to me like this:  I get a call from a coach halfway into a season about something that's not going right for their team.  I agree to come out to their practice site to see if I can help them.  I identify the problem and work with the kids, only to find out how quick and simple of a fix it is.  Then the coaching staff goes right back to the way they were doing it before and having the same failures.  And then incredibly they want to complain that my fixes didn't stick, as if all I had to do was perform the drill correctly at one practice and they thought they were good to go, for the rest of the season.  Getting them to understand that teaching fundamentals is not a one-time, one-practice teach, but an every practice, multiple-time teach and is incongruent to how they "coach."

--Dave

 

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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October 14, 2020 4:50 pm  
Posted by: @prodigy

@coachdp also - I made a bet with Gumby about how much you'd share about your progression publicly - for the reasons you just outlined.  He won.  I didn't expect that you were going to put it out there and who better to speak to it than the man himself.

Well....I debated myself on it.  You almost won.

In the end, I've shared my approach with Lar over the years, so I feel comfortable talking about it with him.  He's taught it.  He's used it.  I believe that he understands it.  And he asked me for the help.  But as I said, you almost won because I simply don't like putting it "out there."  Lots of reasons for that.

I used to have a lot more confidence in coaches being able to teach and utilize drills correctly.  That's when I was younger and naive.  Now, I'm older and know better.  In a clinic situation, or one-on-one, I'm more comfortable about discussing this because with Q&A and a live audience, you get a better feel that coaches are understanding the approach.  But putting my words on paper (or on a forum) and having coaches "interpret" what they think I meant(?)...

As you've said Ken, I do things 99.999% differently than others.  Jack Gregory once told me, "You're not a little different.  You're waay different."  I appreciate the honesty.  lol. But that makes it harder for others to understand the what/where/why/how/when of our approach.  It's hard for a conventional thinker to apply unconventional wisdom.  Just like it's hard for so many to understand the importance of (for example) Parental Buy-In ("Why It's Important/How to Achieve It.") as it pertains to our P.A.I.N! Program.  ("I don't care what parents think!  Just give me some good drills!"  That's the mentality and approach of the majority of coaches out there, so if they can't understand the necessity and reason for applying "Chapter 1: Parents," then they're missing an important component.) I have little interest in helping a coach improve from a 20% quality coach to a 40% quality coach.  I'd rather spend my time on helping a coach who wants to understand it (forwards and backwards, and who can disassemble it and put it back together again).  

The P.A.I.N! Program has a lot of components.  They all work together in order to give you the most confident, physical and intense football team possible.  Most aren't interesting in understanding how or why it works; they just want the drills.  There's no reason to give your car keys to an 8-year-old.  That would be negligent.  And yet many coaches just "demand the drills" and online gurus continue to feed them.  Don't believe me?  Look at Facebook.  Look at what coaches are asking for.  Look at how they are processing the information.  

As I've said ad nauseam, it ain't the drill.  It's the way you teach the drill.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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gumby_in_co
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October 14, 2020 5:32 pm  
Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @prodigy

@coachdp also - I made a bet with Gumby about how much you'd share about your progression publicly - for the reasons you just outlined.  He won.  I didn't expect that you were going to put it out there and who better to speak to it than the man himself.

As I've said ad nauseam, it ain't the drill.  It's the way you teach the drill.

--Dave

 

First of all, thank you for sharing your progression. I thought you might, but wasn't sure and I fully understand why you might not.

It's been a VERY long time since I've seen a drill online where I've said, "I'm going to use that drill". By "online", I mean social media, etc, where someone posts about "Must have drill for D-line", etc.

So to redirect for any lurkers who might be following this discussion, Dave is right. Answering "how do I get my kids to be more aggressive" is a dead horse. I don't mind answering it (yet), Dave does.  I would rather answer that question a thousands times than, "where do I play a kid with no aggression?" once.  I'd rather THAT question a dozen times than, "what offense/defense can I run when my kids aren't aggressive?"

  • If a kid lacks aggression, never assume that he'll never have aggression. 
  • Give him something he can handle and build on it.
  • Do not accept a lack of aggression. That doesn't mean scream at or punish a kid for not having it. It means being relentless in helping that child find the confidence that must precede aggression.
  • Don't look for a magic drill. Some of my best drills are ones I made up on the spot.

I was talking to my 21 year old son about this last night. He said his least favorite part of game day was the pre-game warm up. He did not look forward to going against his teammates because they were going to do their best to hurt him. He couldn't wait for kick off so he could hit the "soft" kids on the other team. Kent and I consulted heavily with DP to design the culture of that team. Our philosophy was that if you can survive practice, game day will be like a day off.

DP is right. There is a HUGE responsibility that comes along with developing THAT team.  There are coaches who mistakenly believe that a kid's level of aggression never changes and do nothing to affect it. On the other end, there are coaches who take the Spartan approach to it. Throw them in the river and if they survive, they can begin training. In the middle is the way to incorporate aggression from top to bottom and no, it is not easy. You're going to have to work at it.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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CoachDP
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October 14, 2020 5:48 pm  
Posted by: @gumby_in_co

First of all, thank you for sharing your progression.

--You're welcome, Lar.  I'm always willing to help.  But I also have to be responsible in how I give that help.  I used the analogy about the kid driving the car.  Regardless of how much time I spend teaching him, he simply has no business driving.  And there are those who have no business coaching.

I thought you might, but wasn't sure and I fully understand why you might not.

--I appreciate that.

It's been a VERY long time since I've seen a drill online where I've said, "I'm going to use that drill". By "online", I mean social media, etc, where someone posts about "Must have drill for D-line", etc.

I don't mind answering it (yet), Dave does. 

--I don't mind answering if I feel comfortable that he can learn.  And I think I can tell that pretty quickly.  I'm sure you notice that I usually ask more questions of those who have questions.

  • If a kid lacks aggression, never assume that he'll never have aggression. 
  • Give him something he can handle and build on it.
  • Do not accept a lack of aggression. That doesn't mean scream at or punish a kid for not having it. It means being relentless in helping that child find the confidence that must precede aggression.
  • Don't look for a magic drill. Some of my best drills are ones I made up on the spot.
  • Aggression is a component of effort, and effort can be taught.
  • Aggression is a fundamental, and can be taught.

Throw them in the river and if they survive, they can begin training. 

--True.  What players don't know is our river is only 6 inches deep.  There's no way they can drown.  On the other hand, it's very difficult to row a boat in 6-inch deep water.  With the oars we use, your hands are likely to get blistered, but at least you won't drown.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Prodigy
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October 15, 2020 9:22 am  

@coachdp @gumby_in_co
You both have plenty of discussion points this morning.  First, I wish I would have known about the bullet drill back when I still had a team to coach, it sounds like it would have been useful, considering how much I relied on the DP approach.

Next...I've got a fair amount of experience with dog training.  After coaching and with divorce in the forecast, I finally got the dog I wanted.  A Belgian Malinois from Dutch lines.  I left him in the car the other day when I ran into the pharmacy and he broke the windshield in my car, probably barking and lunging at someone.  When I got back to the car, I said "oh well" and my GF said that I had the patience of a saint.  As disappointing as it was to have a broken windshield, I recognized that I created the environment and I was grateful that the dog didn't smash into a side window which would have definitely shattered and he would have been free to jump out of the car and go after whomever he was barking at...and it wouldn't have been pretty at all.  Lesson learned: if I take the dog anywhere in the car, he's got to be in the crate when he's unattended.  My fault.

Tying back into the puppy analogy, I think there's really a decent amount of lessons learned from dog training that apply to coaching youth football.  I don't like to use dog analogies primarily because I worry that people will miss the point of what I'm saying and think that I'm closely comparing human children and dogs.  I guess where the real value is, is in having a better understanding of operand conditioning and dog / child psychology, things like positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement and self rewarding behavior.  The kid who is fearful of hitting and avoids contact isn't far off from the dog who sits at the window barking at people who walk by the house.  The dog feels uncomfortable with a stranger nearby and barks...the stranger continues walking, the dog *thinks* "hey, me barking made the stranger go away." The dog truly believes that his actions had an impact on the world around him in this case.  The kid who is worried about hitting, does things to keep himself safe by not giving 100% effort - avoiding contact etc. and he's rewarded every single time by not getting hurt, further reinforcing his apprehension about hitting / contact.  Heck, in my first couple of years as a head coach, I was the poster-boy for insanity per Einsteins definition.  We'd run a drill and a kid would do the frankenstein thing, not give effort...and what would I do?  try running it again, and again, and again and again...until I got tired of not making progress and we'd just move on.

 

  Jack Gregory once told me, "You're not a little different. You're waay different." I appreciate the honesty. lol. But that makes it harder for others to understand the what/where/why/how/when of our approach. 

 

I get it.  What a cool thing for Jack to say.  The way you approach things is extremely unique.  I think that it's the sort of stuff that can only come out of the head of someone who is thoughtful, intelligent and has the ability to solve problems.  I actually think it's pretty beneficial that you didn't play football through all of your youth years, high school, college etc.  People have a tendency of repeating what they previously experienced without good reasons as to why they are doing it.  Good radical example is circumcising male babies.  If you yourself are circumcised, chances are if you have a son...you'll also want him circumcised.  Why? (really don't answer this...it's just an example).

I lost the bet.  I didn't think that you were not going to tell Gumby / Lar.  I just didn't expect that it would be public.  Fully anticipated the response to be via other channels...phone, direct message or whatever.  The pros and cons of posting things publicly is that anyone can read them.  The guy who is cerebral will read it...along with the moron who doesn't understand it but thinks it will work for him...and I lean towards the DP methods being risky on multiple levels for people who don't have a deeper understanding of what's going on.  The average youth coach is going to do some dumb stuff that's well accepted within the youth football community.  The average youth coach who tries to use DP methods without understanding them and without putting all of the puzzle pieces together can get someone hurt while also alienating the administration, parents and players.

 

 

 

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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rpatric
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October 15, 2020 9:53 am  

@prodigy i don't think the average youth coach would attempt to implement DP's methods.

Most of these knuckle dragging Cro-mags out here think they know what their doing better than everyone else. The very thought of hitting without full gear wouldn't even register with most. 

Once a coach actually sits down and listens to someone like Dave, that's when the light bulb starts to turn on

 


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CoachDP
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October 15, 2020 10:22 am  
Posted by: @prodigy

I get it.  What a cool thing for Jack to say.  The way you approach things is extremely unique. 

--Years ago, myself, Jack and another buddy were down in Louisiana for a small on-field clinic that JJ Lawson had put together.  I was giving a clinic to players (but also parents who were in attendance) of "Whose Ball."  I was talking about how we teach our players to fight and that the players were going to "learn to fight today."  Man, did those kids ever get after it.  Really intense.  I was thrilled.  But their parents weren't.  I didn't have a Parent Mini-Meeting to discuss what I was about to teach and why.  I know I didn't go over CAL with them. lol. Anyway, the parents were becoming agitated with this wonderful display of "Whose Ball" and JJ essentially shut it down and my drill demos, as well.  I was lucky to get out of there in one piece...

I actually think it's pretty beneficial that you didn't play football through all of your youth years, high school, college etc. 

--I've long thought that to be an advantage.  I wasn't raised in the conventional box-thought of football, so I don't teach the conventional box-thought.

I lost the bet.  I didn't think that you were not going to tell Gumby / Lar.  I just didn't expect that it would be public.  Fully anticipated the response to be via other channels...phone, direct message or whatever.  The pros and cons of posting things publicly is that anyone can read them. 

--Yes, I shoulda said, "Gimme a call." Usually that will screen out who's really interested and who isn't.  

I lean towards the DP methods being risky on multiple levels for people who don't have a deeper understanding of what's going on.  The average youth coach is going to do some dumb stuff that's well accepted within the youth football community.  The average youth coach who tries to use DP methods without understanding them and without putting all of the puzzle pieces together can get someone hurt while also alienating the administration, parents and players.

--As someone who has used it with great success, you should know better than most.  Very well said.  Thank you.

--Dave 

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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terrypjohnson
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October 15, 2020 11:02 am  

I agree with Coach @rpatric, some youth coaches wouldn't adopt @CoachDP 's methods. As one coach in my league said, "I know football, I don't need some website to tell me how to do things the right way".

I would implore these coaches -- as well as everyone on this board -- to put ego aside and reach out. Talking with Coach Potter one time about COD drill is why I'm able to field two rosters of 12 - 13 players who never, ever get tired. They're also comfortable being uncomfortable, so when we fall behind, no one panics.

I'd hate to think where my teams would be if:

1) I hadn't had that talk.

2) I didn't learn that drill.

3) I didn't understand why we do the drill.

4) I didn't learn how to make kids learning to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

 

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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