For those who have done double wing, do you find the pitch easier, the same, or harder than a shotgun snap?
I think in a push the under center snap wins. We were using the shotgun snap in a game, and in a critical moment the center flung a snap over the QB’s head. It was an easy 5 inches to get into the endzone too. And so if it’s equal, the under center wins because in those situations you can just have the QB take the snap and wedge it in.
What are your thoughts?
My current team's inability to shotgun snap approached the level of "super power", complete with origin story. This led me to "ban" shotgun snaps last season. I am lifting my ban based on a single player who can shotgun snap. It's not an exaggeration to say that our entire season hinges on this player at center/snapper.
Because of this, I have paid close attention to other teams' shotgun snaps. With very few exceptions (Troy), I would categorize shotgun snaps as an unacceptable risk. I probably watch as much or more of Troy's game film than his AC's and I can't recall a game that he lost due to bad snaps. His team is alone in that category, at least in our neck of the woods. In fact, I don't think that he would argue that he won his round 1 playoff game due to bad shotgun snaps from his opponent.
I feel that the toss is MUCH easier, safer, consistent (whatever you want to call it) than the shotgun snap. In fact, I used a toss for our Beast last year.
Game plan? I got your game plan. We gonna run the bawl some. We gonna throw the bawl some. We gonna play some defense. We gonna run some special teams, but we better not run kick return but one time and we sure as heck better not punt.
Until last season, I would have said the Shotgun Snap. However, to maximize my team's ability last year, I went to the Double Wing. We ran Toss and Toss Sweep roughly 100 times in 8 games with zero fumbles.
I'm sure our QB hears me saying "7'oclock. Pitch the ball. Go get an LB" in his sleep!
Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer
For those who have done double wing, do you find the pitch easier, the same, or harder than a shotgun snap?
I am completely lost as to what you're asking. Pitch vs. shotgun snap? I don't understand the comparison.
--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."
The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."
#BattleReady newhope
For those who have done double wing, do you find the pitch easier, the same, or harder than a shotgun snap?
I am completely lost as to what you're asking. Pitch vs. shotgun snap? I don't understand the comparison.
--Dave
Basically, what's a higher risk of fumbles?
If you snap it UC and toss it in DW or if you shotgun snap it and just run it.
I don’t think I’ve ever had a fumble from the toss.
snaps are different story for me, though. 2 years ago we couldn’t get a reliable under center snap. We lost our first game bc of it. After that, we went shotgun and didn’t have a fumbled snap the rest of the year. Last year, though, I had issues with both. And I know we lost our semifinal game bc of a high shotgun snap. No fumble, but it threw off the timing enough that it killed our play on 4th down at the end of the game.
all that to say… the question isn’t if toss is dangerous… the question is if you can teach an under center or shotgun snap. Apparently, I have trouble with both 🙂
Basically, what's a higher risk of fumbles?
If you snap it UC and toss it in DW or if you shotgun snap it and just run it.
We've run Double Wing from UC and Gun at youth and high school. One is not more risky or problematic than the other. For us, our Centers and QBs get 150 snaps every practice; fumble or glitch it and you start over again from zero. At youth that means 450 consecutive snaps weekly and at high school 600. We have a Toss drill for our QBs and WBs, and hand-off drills for our WBs on criss cross. If you overlook this investment then it's likely you'll have problems with whatever you're not practicing or teaching well.
Certainly those coaches who think snaps should just be "automatic" will have those 2-3 gun snaps that go over their QB's head for a 15-yard loss, or their WBs can't handle a Toss because it's not only high, but 7 yards deep.
But your question is in regards to a fundamental and if the fundamental is taught well and thoroughly practiced then there should be no issues.
--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."
The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."
#BattleReady newhope
Having run both DW from the Gun and under center, I found that the under center version was the more consistent.
With the Gun snap, the slightest bobble or off target snap loused up the play's timing.
That being said, in 2015 we started the season with a 137 pound senior at center. Although this kid was "tougher than an old shoe," he was outweighed by an average of 150 pounds in our first 3 games and there was no way we could have the QB under center. We'd have never gotten a play off.
Being in the Gun gave us a chance to keep the offense running.
You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles!
I’m with DP on the comparison front. What makes this an oddball question is there are some teams that have never run a shotgun snap but do run the toss and therefore have no means of comparing the shotgun snap to the toss.
I started out running Cisars Single Wing which technically is a direct snap but it’s really not what anyone would consider a true shotgun snap.
I then moved to running DTDW under center and I will say that timing is everything in this game. Timing and consistency and the more attention you pay to this timing and how your cadence and snaps work and your motion works, the better the entire system will work.
It boils down to being meticulous to the point of obsession. Your wings need to line up the same every time. Their motion needs to be the same every time. The QB cadence needs to be the same every time, the centers snap needs to be the same every time.
The cadence is really a big one…and it ties into some Michael O. stuff also
If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.
Timing and consistency and the more attention you pay to this timing and how your cadence and snaps work and your motion works, the better the entire system will work.
Cadence (having the correct cadence, knowing the reason for the cadence, understanding the rhythm and point of cadence) is paramount. Most coaches just look at cadence as something simply to say before the ball is snapped. In their eyes, they might as well be saying "Jellyfish. Rubberband. Canoodle. Hut...hut...hut."
--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."
The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."
#BattleReady newhope
Timing and consistency and the more attention you pay to this timing and how your cadence and snaps work and your motion works, the better the entire system will work.
Cadence (having the correct cadence, knowing the reason for the cadence, understanding the rhythm and point of cadence) is paramount. Most coaches just look at cadence as something simply to say before the ball is snapped. In their eyes, they might as well be saying "Jellyfish. Rubberband. Canoodle. Hut...hut...hut."
--Dave
@CDP
Some basically do…red 32! red 32! Set Hut!
I know some folks aren’t a fan of this but 99% of the time we went on the first HIT.
I wanted every player stepping on the H of hit and knowing when it was coming. By the time the QB enunciated the T in hit, the ball should have been in his hands.
Periodically we would mix it up and run on set or no play the other team. But when you’re trying to screw around with your snap count like that’s the most important thing in the game and it’s your ultra strategy for winning games and being awesome…you probably stink.
We went on 1 99% of the time and most teams weren’t stopping us. We were getting our 3+ yards per carry which would usually break out for a TD in no more than 2-3 series of downs.
If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.
Timing and consistency and the more attention you pay to this timing and how your cadence and snaps work and your motion works, the better the entire system will work.
Cadence (having the correct cadence, knowing the reason for the cadence, understanding the rhythm and point of cadence) is paramount.
I wanted every player stepping on the H of hit and knowing when it was coming. By the time the QB enunciated the T in hit, the ball should have been in his hands.
Periodically we would mix it up and run on set or no play the other team. But when you’re trying to screw around with your snap count like that’s the most important thing in the game and it’s your ultra strategy for winning games and being awesome…you probably stink.
We went on 1 99% of the time and most teams weren’t stopping us. We were getting our 3+ yards per carry which would usually break out for a TD in no more than 2-3 series of downs.
The reason you have for your cadence is also the reason for screwing around with it enough to confuse the other team. You want everyone on your team to be confident of moving on a certain rhythm...so does the defense, if they can get away with it. I wouldn't rely on a 99-1 ratio as enough to mess with the defense. If you're dominant enough in the line, it doesn't matter...but you can say the same about other things in the game too.
But there's a difference between changing your signals and being non-rhythmic. Being non-rhythmic is just a nasty trick by a signal caller to fool his own team and lower their confidence. Some youth quarterbacks think that's funny; their teammates don't.
We say a state name. This means "coach and QB are done talking and the next word out of QB's mouth is 'HIT!'".
We teach our QB to use the cadence as a weapon. If there's a 1 tech foaming at the mouth, shoulders low, butt high, look him in the eye and wait until he starts shaking. Call "HIT" when he decides to give himself a break from his stance. Or, sometimes quick snap it. "COLORADOHIT!"
Motion complicates things and is one of the reasons I hate motion. Defenders learn to time up the cadence to the motion. From 2nd-5th, we played on 60 yard fields, which meant an offside penalty was only 3 yards. Not worth it to me to teach a no play or fiddle with going on multiple counts. Last year was our first on 100 yard fields with 5 yard penalties and "no play" won us a few games by keeping drives alive.
Tried DW without motion last year and it was a disaster. So now, we tell our MB to stop at the 6 o'clock position on a no play. QB also has to be aware of when to start the motion based on his cadence. If it's a normal or long cadence, he'll call "UTAH", look around, then lift his heel, then "HIT". On a short cadence, he'll lift his heel, then "UTAHIT!"
Troy has been nice enough to send me video of his get off drills and Prodigy's post about the "H" of "HIT" has reminded me to make it a point of focus to anticipate the snap and start your first step on "H".
Game plan? I got your game plan. We gonna run the bawl some. We gonna throw the bawl some. We gonna play some defense. We gonna run some special teams, but we better not run kick return but one time and we sure as heck better not punt.
This is just like anything else. There are boat loads of opinions and it's hard to tell what's what. This is why the internet isn't the information super-highway. It has every fact known to man written on the internet. It also has about 2% of the misinformation ever written.
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