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gumby_in_co
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https://www.denverpost.com/2021/08/10/colorado-youth-quarterback-development-jenkins-elite/

My problems with this:

1) Youth sports hustlers.

2) Specializing.

3) Finding the "right" school for your kid based on depth chart and opportunity to start.

4) QB academy helping find the "right" school for your kid based on depth chart and opportunity to start.

5) Unrealistic expectations (potentially)

6) Youth sports hustlers.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co

https://www.denverpost.com/2021/08/10/colorado-youth-quarterback-development-jenkins-elite/

My problems with this:

Football's just late to the party.  The other sports have been doing this specialization stuff long before football guys began anointing themselves as gurus.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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mahonz
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co

https://www.denverpost.com/2021/08/10/colorado-youth-quarterback-development-jenkins-elite/

My problems with this:

1) Youth sports hustlers.

2) Specializing.

3) Finding the "right" school for your kid based on depth chart and opportunity to start.

4) QB academy helping find the "right" school for your kid based on depth chart and opportunity to start.

5) Unrealistic expectations (potentially)

6) Youth sports hustlers.

I have listened to some of his interviews on one of my Broncos Blogs. Seems like his heart is in the right place and he most certainly understands the position. He even admitted that drilling below the HS level is a waste of money for the Parents. 

As far as finding the right HS....

Erick....Tara's oldest is now 6'6". He has been playing Basketball since he was 6 years old. As a Freshman he did not make the HS Basketball team last Winter. It devastated him and motivated him. Coach Andy's oldest took his position. They both played on the Arvada Bombers at the MS level. Matter for fact Erick played on 3 different teams during his 6th 7th and 8th grade seasons playing BB year round. Erick is more talented than Jude's big Bro....whom you have met many times...but painfully thin. Plus Erick has way more experience. The HS coach is judging a book by its cover. Think Manute Bol vs Shaq as far as physic. 

My advise to Tara...Erick needs to hit the weights while gaining some weight...play Gold Crown summer again... and if he gets passed over again at AW his Sophomore season....change schools in January. He will not get dinged by CHSSA because he never rostered on any team. He has buddies going to the other local HS's so making new friends is not an issue. 

Erick finished 1st in his class out of 479 Freshman grades wise. He will always be able to pull the grades. He needs to play Basketball or he will shrivel up and die. He played in two summer leagues that are just wrapping up and went to (2) week long camps. Since he is so tall...he needed to learn to dribble lower/ faster per the AWHS coach. He fixed that so we shall see. 

So...focusing on athletics has it place under certain circumstances.  

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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terrypjohnson
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co

https://www.denverpost.com/2021/08/10/colorado-youth-quarterback-development-jenkins-elite/

My problems with this:

1) Youth sports hustlers.

2) Specializing.

3) Finding the "right" school for your kid based on depth chart and opportunity to start.

4) QB academy helping find the "right" school for your kid based on depth chart and opportunity to start.

5) Unrealistic expectations (potentially)

6) Youth sports hustlers.

Full disclosure: my middle son is a quarterback (at least for now). However, I'd feel the same way if he were an offensive lineman like his brother.

This *cannot* be the solution going forward. While I 100% agree with Coach Lar (big surprise as I almost always do), I'll add a few more:

1. Dr. James Andrews said specialization is what's caused the increasing number of arm injuries in youth baseball because the kids never gave their arms time to rest. In other words: kids *shouldnt* throw year round. Very surprising that a former college head coach wouldn't know that. Contrast that with Urban Meyer who recruited Joe Burrow because of something he saw on the basketball court.

2. Playing QB isn't a "one size fits all" approach, as there are many different types. What exactly are they teaching? Are these coaches the same ones that go out to Twitter and say, "Stop running the Wing T, it doesn't prepare the kids for the next level".

3. Not everyone is meant to be a quarterback. Even if the kid is groomed from birth like Todd Marinovich, it's not a guarantee that he'll become a starter in the NFL. 

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to tell some kids to get off my lawn 😉

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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terrypjohnson
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Here's the interview from Dr. Andrews that I'm referencing

https://www.cleveland.com/dman/2013/02/noted_surgeon_dr_james_andrews.html

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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gumby_in_co
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@mahonz - Cut twice by the same coach, then going to another school to get a fair shot is one thing. Offering a service to find the "right school" before the kid has ever enrolled in a HS is another. Especially if they are charging for that service. Also, you know my thoughts on stuff like this. I never judge the parents. Their job is to do what's best for junior. It's the guys taking advantage of that dynamic that I have a problem with.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co

Especially if they are charging for that service.

They are, in fact, charging for their "service."  And regardless of whether that service is helpful, they are billing for their time spent.  And parents are of course willing to pay for services they believe it will benefit their child.  Do I think these services are helpful?  Not really.  But the parent has to be educated and informed about what the actual product it is that they're paying for.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Prodigy
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I encountered a "youth sports hustler" a number of years ago.  The local sports shop, that printed t-shirts and stickers for local teams told me to get in touch with this gentleman, so I did.  We sat down and discussed a number of things.  Basically, he ran a for-profit operation that not only sold youth sports equipment but also ran camps and leagues.  If I were to "partner" with him, I would have access to his network of people for equipment at discounts, professional athletes in some cases for camps etc. but he would run the camps and turn a profit.  He was very well liked in the community, at least initially and was very charismatic.

I wasn't a huge fan.  To each their own but I had a bit of an issue where I was basically working a second job as a volunteer coach and a third part-time job as a youth football program administrator...because I love the game, loved the opportunity I had to work with kids and give them a good experience.  Meanwhile there's this guy who pops up out of nowhere, looking to profit off of youth sports.

In my years of coaching, a number of my players went to various clinics, Gronk Camp or Wes Walker Camp or whatever name they happened to throw up that year.  I suppose it was a cool experience for the kids whose parents had the money to pay for them to attend said camp but it wasn't really useful in terms of developing skills.  It was terrific if you wanted to go to Gillette Stadium and get an autograph from an NFL player.

We ran a number of camps ourselves.  We brought in a few former-NFL players.  Probably the  biggest name we had out was Clinton Portis.  It was a neat experience for the kids but by far the best clinics we put on were with Coach Dave Potter.

Towards the end of my run as a youth coach, I seen some of my players participating in these "ELITE" pay-to-play all-star teams that would go down south.  It was all just a big money grab.

The best thing I think kids can do is play sports they enjoy.  When football wraps up, go play another sport, stay active.  When you get to be 12 or 13, start lifting weights.

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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mahonz
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Posted by: @prodigy

I encountered a "youth sports hustler" a number of years ago.  The local sports shop, that printed t-shirts and stickers for local teams told me to get in touch with this gentleman, so I did.  We sat down and discussed a number of things.  Basically, he ran a for-profit operation that not only sold youth sports equipment but also ran camps and leagues.  If I were to "partner" with him, I would have access to his network of people for equipment at discounts, professional athletes in some cases for camps etc. but he would run the camps and turn a profit.  He was very well liked in the community, at least initially and was very charismatic.

I wasn't a huge fan.  To each their own but I had a bit of an issue where I was basically working a second job as a volunteer coach and a third part-time job as a youth football program administrator...because I love the game, loved the opportunity I had to work with kids and give them a good experience.  Meanwhile there's this guy who pops up out of nowhere, looking to profit off of youth sports.

In my years of coaching, a number of my players went to various clinics, Gronk Camp or Wes Walker Camp or whatever name they happened to throw up that year.  I suppose it was a cool experience for the kids whose parents had the money to pay for them to attend said camp but it wasn't really useful in terms of developing skills.  It was terrific if you wanted to go to Gillette Stadium and get an autograph from an NFL player.

We ran a number of camps ourselves.  We brought in a few former-NFL players.  Probably the  biggest name we had out was Clinton Portis.  It was a neat experience for the kids but by far the best clinics we put on were with Coach Dave Potter.

Towards the end of my run as a youth coach, I seen some of my players participating in these "ELITE" pay-to-play all-star teams that would go down south.  It was all just a big money grab.

The best thing I think kids can do is play sports they enjoy.  When football wraps up, go play another sport, stay active.  When you get to be 12 or 13, start lifting weights.

Cisar took a TON of grief when he first started selling systems. 

I never understood why there exists this unwritten rule that profiting off youth sports is taboo. 

Leagues exist that are for profit and all involved are paid a salary. Then you have Rec leagues where everyone is a volunteer. I have always wondered...if the High School level pays a salary....sometimes just enough cover gas....then why not at the youth level? Why is it that a guy who approaches youth with pay to participate events....is automatically a con artist? 

Everything is a money grab.  The Parks and Rec Districts gets money from the voters and or property taxes....builds and facility and then charges a fee to the voters and or property owners to use it. Money grab? Should the folks mowing the grass be volunteers?

Camps or Leagues or Clinics or Tournaments or selling systems are really no different. 

My very good friend Lar started this Thread. Jenkins Elites isnt the problem here. He is helping kids get better at something....like a Tutor. Problem is its sports related so there is this pre determined notion by VOLUNTEER COACHES that this guy just might be a flim flam man. 

If there is a market for it....well? 

My take. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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CoachDP
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Mike, here's the conflict/issue/problem, IMO. Cisar was selling to coaches.  Coaches were buying his book & materials to improve.  Selling to kids (actually to parents, but through kids) is a different matter.  Young kids (for the most part) will get ZERO fundamental benefit from a camp.  If they're attending a celebrity camp, getting a picture and an autograph, then that's fine, I suppose.  But I have attended MANY youth football "camps" that either taught little, or the age of the child was so young that what was taught could never be retained.  When I was a youth coach, we did offer camps in the spring and summer.  But they were free, for the most part were attended by kids who'd played for us in previous years and the camp served as a refresher course in what we did/how we did it, gave new kids and parents an opportunity to meet their coach for the upcoming season, gave the parent the opportunity to see how the coach coached, and how the org operated, and was an opportunity to recruit new kids/families.  We never charged anything for this.  While I've traveled around to provide various clinics for coaches (Prodigy and others), it was successful because 1) I was there to clinic their coaching staff, 2) the players were learning the Double Wing from their own coach, 3) kids weren't paying for the camp. Heck, even when I took my own youth players to camps it wasn't because I thought they'd learn anything.  I thought they'd have some fun at a college facility while I learned some drills and how to teach them from the college coaches.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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mahonz
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Posted by: @coachdp

Mike, here's the conflict/issue/problem, IMO. Cisar was selling to coaches.  Coaches were buying his book & materials to improve.  Selling to kids (actually to parents, but through kids) is a different matter.  Young kids (for the most part) will get ZERO fundamental benefit from a camp.  If they're attending a celebrity camp, getting a picture and an autograph, then that's fine, I suppose.  But I have attended MANY youth football "camps" that either taught little, or the age of the child was so young that what was taught could never be retained.  When I was a youth coach, we did offer camps in the spring and summer.  But they were free, for the most part were attended by kids who'd played for us in previous years and the camp served as a refresher course in what we did/how we did it, gave new kids and parents an opportunity to meet their coach for the upcoming season, gave the parent the opportunity to see how the coach coached, and how the org operated, and was an opportunity to recruit new kids/families.  We never charged anything for this.  While I've traveled around to provide various clinics for coaches (Prodigy and others), it was successful because 1) I was there to clinic their coaching staff, 2) the players were learning the Double Wing from their own coach, 3) kids weren't paying for the camp. Heck, even when I took my own youth players to camps it wasn't because I thought they'd learn anything.  I thought they'd have some fun at a college facility while I learned some drills and how to teach them from the college coaches.

--Dave

Football is the one sport that should embrace camps and the like. You cant get better at this game on your own outside of film study and weight training or clinics. It requires actually playing / drilling the game with others to improve. No batting ages or a basketball hoop at the park or a soccer net in the backyard like other sports allow. 

Now...how these camps are run is another matter. Some are better than others for sure and shysters' do exist. Im just not understanding the notion that if someone were to profit off youth sports....they must be a fraud. 

Heck I have thought about running pre season jamborees. I'd make $12-15K for 75 days of light work and not one single person would care....unless of course it was a chitty jamboree.  And I wouldn't for it for the love of the game. I'd be doing it for the money. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @mahonz

I never understood why there exists this unwritten rule that profiting off youth sports is taboo. 

Very simple to me.  Let's start with my belief that the primary purpose of youth sports is the betterment of youth. When someone tries to make a living off of youth sports, that primary purpose changes to $$$. We already see enough cheating, corruption and broken moral compasses among the volunteers. Throw profit into the mix and well . . .  

I have always wondered...if the High School level pays a salary....sometimes just enough cover gas....then why not at the youth level? Why is it that a guy who approaches youth with pay to participate events....is automatically a con artist? 

Not automatically, but I've seen enough Youth Sports Hustlers over the years to make me automatically wary. It doesn't necessarily have to be profit-motivated either. Eddie Mac was motivated to get his boys the best youth experience he could provide. So he (allegedly) signed up neighbor kids to Christian's teams and had kids from out of his boundary play under those assumed identities. Your buddy at Creek Red Nation was motivated to get his boys D1 scholarships, so he ran rough shod over 2 major youth football leagues. Neither guy gave a crap about what he was doing to the local "volunteer" leagues. In Jake's last year of youth hockey, a very close family friend asked me if it was a good idea to shell out $6000 to a "Family Advisor" (NCAA-legal sports agent). He claimed that he knew of 2 "free to play" Junior teams interested in her son and would make sure he got into tryouts. Since Juniors could easily cost $10k per season, this would be a bargain. Okay, first problem is that it would be 100% against the rule for this guy to be a scout for more than one Junior team. Second problem is that if these teams were truly interested in her son, she would have heard from them. So in the hockey world, I've probably seen a dozen hustlers and not one of them were able to deliver on anything promised. So my opinion is probably very jaded.

Everything is a money grab.  The Parks and Rec Districts gets money from the voters and or property taxes....builds and facility and then charges a fee to the voters and or property owners to use it. Money grab? Should the folks mowing the grass be volunteers?

Camps or Leagues or Clinics or Tournaments or selling systems are really no different. 

I see that as very different.  Parks and Rec orgs promise fields, rec centers, parks, paths, etc. Then they deliver for the most part. Sometimes they are mis-managed, but they deliver.

My very good friend Lar started this Thread. Jenkins Elites isnt the problem here. He is helping kids get better at something....like a Tutor. Problem is its sports related so there is this pre determined notion by VOLUNTEER COACHES that this guy just might be a flim flam man. 

If there is a market for it....well? 

My take. 

Going back to my original 6 problems with Jenkins Elites:

1) Youth sports hustlers. - The business model depends to some degree on the existence of whackadoo parents. Not all parents who take their kids to an elite QB academy are whackadoo, but I'd bet a good proportion of them are. So as the adults are exchanging money, promises, goods and services, if something isn't right, it's the kid who suffers.

2) Specializing. - I have no problem with this if it's the kid who only wants to do one sport. Too much potential for not letting him/her try other sports because we "have to focus on football (or whatever)". Looking back, I wish I had convinced Jake to play rec hockey so he could continue to play football and other sports. At the time, I had visions of a D1 scholarship in my head.

3) Finding the "right" school for your kid based on depth chart and opportunity to start. - We talked about this. I think there are plenty of "good" reasons for shopping/changing schools, so I'm not 100% opposed to this, but before the kid has ever set foot in the school or took a HS snap? I wonder if Deion is reconsidering his decision to to to Pomona vs A-West.

4) QB academy helping find the "right" school for your kid based on depth chart and opportunity to start. - I don't think this can ever be good. If you think about it, it's just a way to get around the CHSAA recruiting rule. Speaking of CHSAA, they take the lion's share of the blame on this. They change their recruiting/transfer rules every other year because they refuse to consistently enforce their own rules.

5) Unrealistic expectations (potentially) - Dre out-performed Mihai last night in our passing session. The only area where Mihai has an edge is that Dre doesn't consistently throw in 2 seconds. I can hardly wait to have the post-game conversation with Mom after our BF game when Dre is the QB. How much worse would this be if she invested $$$ in an "Elite QB Academy"?

6) Youth sports hustlers.

I will admit that as far as youth sports hustlers go, Jenkins Elite seems to deliver on what the promise from the football side. Helping them find the "right school"? That's where I get sideways with them.

 

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @mahonz

Cisar took a TON of grief when he first started selling systems. 

I never understood why there exists this unwritten rule that profiting off youth sports is taboo. 

Leagues exist that are for profit and all involved are paid a salary. Then you have Rec leagues where everyone is a volunteer. I have always wondered...if the High School level pays a salary....sometimes just enough cover gas....then why not at the youth level? Why is it that a guy who approaches youth with pay to participate events....is automatically a con artist? 

Everything is a money grab.  The Parks and Rec Districts gets money from the voters and or property taxes....builds and facility and then charges a fee to the voters and or property owners to use it. Money grab? Should the folks mowing the grass be volunteers?

Camps or Leagues or Clinics or Tournaments or selling systems are really no different. 

My very good friend Lar started this Thread. Jenkins Elites isnt the problem here. He is helping kids get better at something....like a Tutor. Problem is its sports related so there is this pre determined notion by VOLUNTEER COACHES that this guy just might be a flim flam man. 

If there is a market for it....well? 

This doesn't seem to be a problem with all youth sports, only a few.  Try getting your child lessons in tennis, swimming, or skating without paying the instructor.  And it's not just individual instruction, same with groups taking martial arts.


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @bob-goodman

This doesn't seem to be a problem with all youth sports, only a few.  Try getting your child lessons in tennis, swimming, or skating without paying the instructor.  And it's not just individual instruction, same with groups taking martial arts.

You make a great point. Even in hockey, there were a handful of "power skating" instructors who were worth every penny. We also paid a figure skating instructor to teach edge work to our hockey players.

On the other hand, we had a guy (still around) that was the director of the premier AAA (elite) program in the state. He made a lot of money on the side with lessons and "pre-tryout camps". The sentiment was that attending these camps at $300 for 3 hours of skating would improve your chances to make his elite team. He did nothing to dispel that sentiment.

His best scam was the elite Spring hockey program. None of the true "elite" players participated. The kids who aspired to play on the elite club took part thinking it would give them an inside track in the elite tryouts in the Fall. This Spring program was usually in preparation to play 1 tournament in Canada or MN. He took twice as many kids as needed for a hockey team. The bottom half of that program was the "developmental" squad aka "you're not going to the tournament, but you are welcome to practice with us". Those kids would probably not make their local club's A or B team, but their money spends just as good as a AAA kid's. In this state, $20 per hour on the ice, per kid is the "break even" point. This means the person isn't going to make any money in their camp. $25 is a minor profit. You can pay your younger assistants a stipend for gas, meals, maybe some coach apparel. Anything over $20 per hour is profit. These "developmental" kids were paying $60 to $80 per hour. Delusional parents play a big role in this, but I always question someone who takes advantage of delusional parents for profit.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Prodigy
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Perhaps this really is just a matter of what we've been conditioned to.  The vast majority of youth sports I've encountered have been non-profits, heck if I recall Pop Warner and AYF are both non-profit organizations.  I'm fairly certain that most baseball programs and such are similar. 

I worked for a non-profit for a number of years as an employee.  It was a multi-million dollar operation, best known for their role in rediscovering the titanic.  There weren't volunteers.  There was however; some rules that the organization had to follow to maintain their non-profit status.  This is stuff that likely goes on at the high levels of Pop Warner and AYF etc.

I guess most of us don't spend much time thinking that the presidents of Pop Warner and AYF are making a decent amount of money while we're volunteering for their organizations, getting kids involved, basically feeding them money pro bono.  Why do we do it?  For the love of the game and for the love of the kids.  

Meanwhile there are people who are making money providing less of a service than we are....or at least attempting to.  It leaves a foul taste in my mouth.  Actually, when I pause to think about the amount of work that I've put into youth football over the years and imagining this feeding up the chain to put dollars in other peoples pockets, it is indeed a little upsetting for some reason.

Maybe the real answer is a change in culture.  Maybe what youth football needs is a for-profit youth football organization of some sort...but I'm sure that raises problems of its' own.  I just don't think there are any good answers.  Also I will add, in my years of coaching, I wasn't very impressed by very many coaches.  There are a few out there but the ratio is probably 9 bad coaches to every 1 good one.  If there was a guy who was trying to profit running youth sports and he was solid, I'd have less apprehension about him selling services.  

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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