Why Do Great Footba...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Why Do Great Football Areas Produce Poor College Teams?

Page 2 / 5

davecisar
(@davecisar)
Diamond
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 7679
Topic starter  

I live in Virginia and most kids think of Virginia Tech as the top school, not UVA.  UVA just doesn't have the winning tradition to pull in all of the top talent in the state.  If given the choice between the two, most will be headed to Blacksburg.  That said, schools like Alabama, Florida and Florida State are popular among the kids in Virginia too.

This is much different than the state of Ohio, where I used to live.  Nearly every Ohioan that receives an offer from Ohio State will end up being a Buckeye.

I get that- Tech has had some success the last what 15 years or so, Beemer does a great job.
But with 312 kids who are DI in VA and kids who want to stay near home- one would think enough good players would stay home, at least enough for UVA to stay out of the cellar of the worst of DI football programs. That's about 62 DI kids a year and VT can only take about 20 of them.

I get why a Kansas State, Idaho, New Mexico, Wyoming or even Nebraska wouldn't be any good due to population, weather, geography and demographics, but those 2 IL and VA blow me away- they aren't mediocre, they are bottom of the barrel.

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.Winston Churchill


ReplyQuote
DREagle
(@coyouthcoach)
Silver
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 897
 

Good question.

Denver is an NFL town thru and thru. The Big 3 Youth Football Leagues here have been in business for well over 50 years. High School Football rules. Boulder Colorado is probably one of the most beautiful settings anywhere for a major College Campus and is only 30 miles from Downtown Denver yet most of the blue chip players leave the State.

I have many family members that are Colorado alumni and every one of them says the Regents just don't put a lot of stock in Athletics unless it has to do with the Olympics. They dropped baseball about 30 years ago because they didn't want to deal with it. Compared to a school like Nebraska or Texas, Colorado's facilities are lagging big time and I think that has an impact on the kids making these decisions.

I do know that Colorado State is on a huge upswing as far as Athletics go because they are pouring mega funds into their facilities. The Air Force Academy will always be who they are as far as Athletics....up and down but always held in high regard as a Program.

I'm a CU alum and agree wholeheartedly. The powers that be do the absolute minimum as it relates to sports like football.  They don't mind dumping resources in to the ski team (much less expensive, etc), but the football program has always fought an uphill battle for support from the regents. Luckily, some alum have some money that they are dumping in to the facilities and Coach MacIntyre is really working on getting the youth football programs involved with the University.  He has offered to have players visit youth practices and allowed youth teams on the field for the spring game.  It would be nice if he could get our local talent to stick around.  Hope it helps.


ReplyQuote
DREagle
(@coyouthcoach)
Silver
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 897
 

Also, if we could just get kids to show up for the bong team tryouts CU would beat the crap out of everyone!  ::)


ReplyQuote
davecisar
(@davecisar)
Diamond
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 7679
Topic starter  

When we did our tour of Colorado School of Mines- that was the consensus. Boulder is well known for that, but it's only recent that it has become legal is my understanding. 

Not sure that it's not a sign of the times. I have a friend connected to the Oregon program and they told me they have the very same issues there. Over 50% of the team tested out positive at one juncture.

As fanatical as the Bronco fans are along with HS and youth ball- I thought the Buffs were going to be a long term power. Especially once they got Hawkins.

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.Winston Churchill


ReplyQuote
CoachBrian
(@coachbrian)
Gold
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1052
 

I get that- Tech has had some success the last what 15 years or so, Beemer does a great job.
But with 312 kids who are DI in VA and kids who want to stay near home- one would think enough good players would stay home, at least enough for UVA to stay out of the cellar of the worst of DI football programs. That's about 62 DI kids a year and VT can only take about 20 of them.

I get why a Kansas State, Idaho, New Mexico, Wyoming or even Nebraska wouldn't be any good due to population, weather, geography and demographics, but those 2 IL and VA blow me away- they aren't mediocre, they are bottom of the barrel.

If I'm not mistaken, UVA has some tough standards to get into the school.  I'm sure football has a number of exceptions they can use each year, but that might be part of their problem.  That said, most of the population in the state of Virginia is in either NOVA or the Richmond area.  In the NOVA area you hear about the Maryland Terps a lot and then the Washington Redskins.  They even talk about VaTech some in the media, but they hardly ever mention UVA.  If the media isn't talking about UVA, there going to be at a disadvantage.


ReplyQuote
davecisar
(@davecisar)
Diamond
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 7679
Topic starter  

Thanks for the input, that's good to know, maybe the media has a lot to do with it.

Certainly academic standards can come into play
I know Stanford and Notre Dame have issues with this and seem to be reasonably competitive on a consistent basis

With about 62 DI kids a year in VA, plenty to go around- VT cant take them all- they aren't Bama  ;D
By sheer luck and circumstance- you think they would be able to pick up a good number of those kids- just because they are close by

Maryland has been pretty awful too- not sure what the deal is there. Edsall did a nice job at UConn. I see a lot of good youth football in Maryland.

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.Winston Churchill


ReplyQuote
flosman
(@flosman)
Silver
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 615
 

New jersey has some of the best football in the country and were bad for so long at the college level that most local kids thought of rutgers as a last resort school. Greg schiano worked very hard to change the culture here and was very successful at it up until he left. Kyle flood took over and now we are starting to go the wrong way again. The key for small state success is the same for big state success which is the same for high school and youth and that is COACHING. Without good coaching you cannot sustain success. See VT, Boise, Washington, vandy and any smaller state school that produces wins. After these great coaches leave what happens? Wish rutgers could get another good coach.

Do you really think New Jersey has great football? I am from Maryland and currently coach in Florida and I think HS football in the mid Atlantic is much inferior to what is played in the South. I know there are some good teams,  coaches and players and certainly the great programs in the area can play with most anybody. I just don't think there are many teams like that in your area. I think for the most part the coaches are not allowed to coach the kids in the off season and that is the difference. Football down here is truly year round and teams are well funded which provides better resources. I really thought this was not true until I coached down here. 


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 23090
 

Do you really think New Jersey has great football? I am from Maryland and currently coach in Florida and I think HS football in the mid Atlantic is much inferior to what is played in the South. I know there are some good teams,  coaches and players and certainly the great programs in the area can play with most anybody. I just don't think there are many teams like that in your area. I think for the most part the coaches are not allowed to coach the kids in the off season and that is the difference. Football down here is truly year round and teams are well funded which provides better resources. I really thought this was not true until I coached down here.

F

Curious...from an NFL standpoint. If what you say is true then why do the Redskins rule and all Florida teams drool when it comes to their fan base? Florida seems to be a serious Football hotbed yet the NFL has a hard time filling up their Stadiums unless the Team is doing well. Yet when the Redskins stink....they still sell out every game? And with DS at the helm... those Tickets don't come cheap. 

You could also say the same thing about the Ravens.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
davecisar
(@davecisar)
Diamond
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 7679
Topic starter  

What's interesting as well- a team like the Miami Hurricanes even in the years when they've been really good- they still have lackluster attendance. When they do have poor years- the place is kind of empty.  Of course the Gators and Seminoles have a much more loyal fan base for whatever reason.
They only fill up about 60% of their stadium:
http://students.com.miami.edu/netreporting/?page_id=1280

Maybe the places with lots of choices to watch good HS football and the NFL- have a tough time supporting college football? That's 3 days in row of football.

As to pro teams in big cities- maybe that's it's own special anomaly as well.
Getting off on a bit of a tangent- I was in Toronto a couple of weeks ago cliniciing:
The Toronto Maple Leafs haven't won a Stanley Cup in 50 years
They have sold out every game for a decade+
Standing room only seats are $95
Beers are TWENTY FIVE DOLLARS  ::)
That is what several of them told me- Ive not been to a Leafs game in person. Heck it took us forever just to get to the airport.

The guys I clinic with who are Toronto fans drive to Buffalo to watch them play the Sabres- its cheaper according to them and more fun.

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.Winston Churchill


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 23090
 

What's interesting as well- a team like the Miami Hurricanes even in the years when they've been really good- they still have lackluster attendance. When they do have poor years- the place is kind of empty.  Of course the Gators and Seminoles have a much more loyal fan base for whatever reason.
They only fill up about 60% of their stadium:
http://students.com.miami.edu/netreporting/?page_id=1280

Maybe the places with lots of choices to watch good HS football and the NFL- have a tough time supporting college football? That's 3 days in row of football.

As to pro teams in big cities- maybe that's it's own special anomaly as well.
Getting off on a bit of a tangent- I was in Toronto a couple of weeks ago cliniciing:
The Toronto Maple Leafs haven't won a Stanley Cup in 50 years
They have sold out every game for a decade+
Standing room only seats are $95
Beers are TWENTY FIVE DOLLARS  ::)
That is what several of them told me- Ive not been to a Leafs game in person. Heck it took us forever just to get to the airport.

The guys I clinic with who are Toronto fans drive to Buffalo to watch them play the Sabres- its cheaper according to them and more fun.

Saturated with other things to do seems to be the excuse for Los Angles failing to keep NFL Teams.

You'd think 14M people could fill just ONE Stadium every other Sunday during the Fall.

I wonder if Jerry sells out his House in Dallas every week? Whats it hold?...100K? 

The GB Packers kinda break the mold and do well in a very small Market but they are owned by the Fans so maybe that is the key.

When I lived in Phoenix I could go to any Cardinals game on a whim except Dallas and quickly find seats for half price.  Terrible ownership....terrible NFL town until Curt Warner showed up.

One year my wife and I...back when we were young...went to every Broncos game both home and away. My favorite road game when it came to the fans and how we were treated....the Kansas City Chiefs. My least favorite stop...the LA Raiders.  The atmospheres were VERY different. Going to a Raiders game was like visiting Hell.  ???

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
PSLCOACHROB
(@pslcoachrob)
Kryptonite
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 12408
 

F

Curious...from an NFL standpoint. If what you say is true then why do the Redskins rule and all Florida teams drool when it comes to their fan base? Florida seems to be a serious Football hotbed yet the NFL has a hard time filling up their Stadiums unless the Team is doing well. Yet when the Redskins stink....they still sell out every game? And with DS at the helm... those Tickets don't come cheap. 

You could also say the same thing about the Ravens.

Mike,
  I have been to a bunch of college and pro games all over the nation. The Florida teams in the NFL have terrible attendance. One big thing for me is that I have no desire to sit in the Florida sun all day long and then drive the 2 hours home. Dolphins games are often BRUTALLY hot(and just bad football imo). Then you have the fact that many people that live in Florida are from other places. Many are from NY, NJ, Ct etc. Often the transplants continue to support the teams they grew up with, myself included(I have a liking for the Bucs though). Then you also must consider that there are more than a few things to do down here on a Sunday afternoon. Miami does not support any of their pro teams except the Heat which is a bit of an anomaly with Lebron. They were not that well supported when it was Wade carrying the torch even though theywon a title with him and did well every year. THe Marlins are the biggest joke in town. As many Cubans as there are in Miami you would think that baseball would be huge down there(supposedly Cubans love baseball). Marlins games are woefully attended unless a big name is in town. Go to a Miami vs New England game and you will find more Pats fans than Miami fans. Same with the Jets.
College ball is a little different. The only good college team from the north east is Penn State. College ball is not big in the ne. So when fans move to Florida they catch the college ball bug quickly. They have no back home loyalty. Plus the Florida college teams are almost always good. If you talk football down here you are usually talking about college ball. It is huge down here.
Miami is also in an unusual position geographically. It is at the end of a peninsula. Plus, the traffic is very bad down there. I don't know what goes on in Jacksonville. The HS football is awesome up there. The pro football is just bad recently. Tampa as well. The Bucs used to do pretty well but seem to be on a decline in attendance. Great HS football as well over there. BTW, hs football is not greatly attended down here believe it or not. I remember in NJ the hs games were wall to wall people, a few thousand each game. NJ hs ball is pretty good but with the raping of the public schools by the private schools it is becoming more of a few team show every year. One of those schools, Don Bosco Prep(national power house btw), will play one of our local hs this upcoming season.


ReplyQuote
WBCoach
(@rstockwell)
Bronze
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 458
 

Do you really think New Jersey has great football? I am from Maryland and currently coach in Florida and I think HS football in the mid Atlantic is much inferior to what is played in the South. I know there are some good teams,  coaches and players and certainly the great programs in the area can play with most anybody. I just don't think there are many teams like that in your area. I think for the most part the coaches are not allowed to coach the kids in the off season and that is the difference. Football down here is truly year round and teams are well funded which provides better resources. I really thought this was not true until I coached down here.

For the size of our state yes some of the best on the country. So what does Maryland football have to do with NJ?

Team work: good as gold


ReplyQuote
WBCoach
(@rstockwell)
Bronze
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 458
 

What's interesting as well- a team like the Miami Hurricanes even in the years when they've been really good- they still have lackluster attendance. When they do have poor years- the place is kind of empty.  Of course the Gators and Seminoles have a much more loyal fan base for whatever reason.
They only fill up about 60% of their stadium:
http://students.com.miami.edu/netreporting/?page_id=1280

Maybe the places with lots of choices to watch good HS football and the NFL- have a tough time supporting college football? That's 3 days in row of football.

As to pro teams in big cities- maybe that's it's own special anomaly as well.
Getting off on a bit of a tangent- I was in Toronto a couple of weeks ago cliniciing:
The Toronto Maple Leafs haven't won a Stanley Cup in 50 years
They have sold out every game for a decade+
Standing room only seats are $95
Beers are TWENTY FIVE DOLLARS  ::)
That is what several of them told me- Ive not been to a Leafs game in person. Heck it took us forever just to get to the airport.

The guys I clinic with who are Toronto fans drive to Buffalo to watch them play the Sabres- its cheaper according to them and more fun.

Miami biggest problem is they are a small private school unlike the gayturds and Seminoles who are big schools, thus it has a small group of alums. Other problems include what rob said above also a big Hispanic population from what I have seen when I was down that way last(soccer).

Team work: good as gold


ReplyQuote
RoyalFlush18
(@royalflush18)
Bronze
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 192
 

Slanting it my perspective Big12/Big8. Mizzou has underachieved for 2 Main Reason: OU and NU. Same is probably true of the Illini; having Michigan and OSU in your conference (ND also) and in your recruiting grounds makes it difficult to acquire the talent year in and year out to compete. Winstrom was a big loss for Mizzou and OU takes a few every year as well. Once every 5 years sure, when things fall together.

Still you would expect Illinois to challenge for a title once every 5 years, not once every 30.

As for Virginia...they play in the ACC, none of those "original ACC" schools have any real history and I'm pretty sure much of the fan base would rather knock off Duke or UNC in Feb then win a Football Title. Before FSU, Miami, and Va Tech Joined, I couldn't even take a reasonable guess who the dominant program was in the ACC.

Pro Sports has an impact as well. Missouri is a Chiefs and Cardinals state. I'd assume the same for Chicago.


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 23090
 

Mike,
  I have been to a bunch of college and pro games all over the nation. The Florida teams in the NFL have terrible attendance. One big thing for me is that I have no desire to sit in the Florida sun all day long and then drive the 2 hours home. Dolphins games are often BRUTALLY hot(and just bad football imo). Then you have the fact that many people that live in Florida are from other places. Many are from NY, NJ, Ct etc. Often the transplants continue to support the teams they grew up with, myself included(I have a liking for the Bucs though). Then you also must consider that there are more than a few things to do down here on a Sunday afternoon. Miami does not support any of their pro teams except the Heat which is a bit of an anomaly with Lebron. They were not that well supported when it was Wade carrying the torch even though theywon a title with him and did well every year. THe Marlins are the biggest joke in town. As many Cubans as there are in Miami you would think that baseball would be huge down there(supposedly Cubans love baseball). Marlins games are woefully attended unless a big name is in town. Go to a Miami vs New England game and you will find more Pats fans than Miami fans. Same with the Jets.
College ball is a little different. The only good college team from the north east is Penn State. College ball is not big in the ne. So when fans move to Florida they catch the college ball bug quickly. They have no back home loyalty. Plus the Florida college teams are almost always good. If you talk football down here you are usually talking about college ball. It is huge down here.
Miami is also in an unusual position geographically. It is at the end of a peninsula. Plus, the traffic is very bad down there. I don't know what goes on in Jacksonville. The HS football is awesome up there. The pro football is just bad recently. Tampa as well. The Bucs used to do pretty well but seem to be on a decline in attendance. Great HS football as well over there. BTW, hs football is not greatly attended down here believe it or not. I remember in NJ the hs games were wall to wall people, a few thousand each game. NJ hs ball is pretty good but with the raping of the public schools by the private schools it is becoming more of a few team show every year. One of those schools, Don Bosco Prep(national power house btw), will play one of our local hs this upcoming season.

R

Makes sense. When I lived in Phoenix the running joke was if you lived there you weren't from there. Plus sitting in the Sept heat to watch a game was ridiculous. The Cards at least have a Dome now.

I went to the '91 Orange Bowl...I think....the year CU beat ND for the NC?... I really enjoyed Miami. We stayed for nearly a month although I got in trouble whenever we went to the Art Deco District in Miami Beach on Friday night. At the time the Latinos would cruse the Boardwalk showing off their head dresses while wearing not much else.  🙂  Man those Latin women are very beautiful ! If I ever go to Carnival in Rio that will be my death.  😛

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
Page 2 / 5
Share: