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CoachDP
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Posted by: @dimson

I am trying but it is hard when I am not the HC or the OC.

--I get it.

I make suggestions on how to improve or offense but they either get ignored or I get told we are going to do what I suggest but in the game it never happens.

--That's probably for the best, if the GAME is where they were going to initially try it.

Quite frankly, without our QB, we don't have any points this year.

--Yeah, that's why a scheme would probably be helpful.  It allows other players to contribute and be successful. ? 

We are young and only have 14-15 kids a game but our offense should be putting up more than 6-12 points a game. 

--6-12?  That's anemic.  How's your defense?

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @dimson

Right now we are a block the closest guy to you team. I would like either use SAB/TKO blocking or double team up front. So I am open to suggestions but it may not be my call as I am not the HC. 

No point in running Beast (as a full-time scheme, or as a change-up) if you aren't going to block it correctly.  Otherwise, there's really no difference in it than any other base-blocked "offense."  If your header's run Beast before and had a blocking scheme, he'd most likely have a blocking scheme with the "offense" you're running now.  So running Beast won't fix what ails you...

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Mr. Forever Learning
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Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @bob-goodman

Dimson and Gumby, are you sure switching to a track blocking scheme is a good idea for just one game with just a few days to practice it? 

No, but I don't know how to run beast (or anything for that matter) with "block the guy closest to you".

"Block the guy closest to you" may sound like nothing, but it means the kids are used to finding a person who they can see before the ball is snapped to block.  Switching from that to a scheme where they can't be sure who they'll be blocking until the players are moving seems like more to get used to than any number of other schemes I could think of installing.

I installed TKO in about 25 minutes with a group of kids who were used to Gap on Backer in mega splits. They took to it like ducks to water. But . . . I've run and taught TKO a lot.

There are a lot of things I'd favor over what we do, but if asked by my HC whether to put it in now I'd say, no, not worth it this far down the road and with so little to go.

Best player out . . . assuming they can't run their normal offense without that kid . . . why not Beast? I get your points though.

Installing beast could be a good idea, but with a blocking scheme that's conceptually closer to "block the guy closest to you" than any kind of track blocking taught by someone who hasn't taught it a lot.  I'm thinking of some other scheme that would allow them to see at the snap who they were going to block -- a count or priority-list ("initialism") rule.

I'm thinking of a part-or-trap scheme.  MOMA by everyone on the line except for an OL who has "man on" at the POA.  If there's no man on at the POA, it parts the seas.  If there's a man on there, that OL rips or swims past him to 2nd level, and the farthest-away blocking back whams him from the side when he penetrates.  The blocking backs closest to the POA go thru the hole and cross-block at the 2nd level.

The only way this wouldn't work is against a DL who's too slow to penetrate even slightly.

We used Beast this year at the Middle school I teach and coach at for 2-point conversions. I wanted to use GOD blocking at first, but we used IHOP instead and we ran wedge as well. For example, I-Inside gap, H-Head up, O- Outside gap, and P-pullup and block the nearest backer. We ran it under center and in the shotgun. UNO-means under center and SUGAR- means in the shotgun. 


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @mr-forever-learning

we used IHOP instead and we ran wedge as well. For example, I-Inside gap, H-Head up, O- Outside gap, and P-pullup and block the nearest backer. We ran it under center and in the shotgun. UNO-means under center and SUGAR- means in the shotgun. 

What offensive scheme did you pair with IHOP?

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Dimson
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Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @dimson

I am trying but it is hard when I am not the HC or the OC.

--I get it.

I make suggestions on how to improve or offense but they either get ignored or I get told we are going to do what I suggest but in the game it never happens.

--That's probably for the best, if the GAME is where they were going to initially try it.

Quite frankly, without our QB, we don't have any points this year.

--Yeah, that's why a scheme would probably be helpful.  It allows other players to contribute and be successful. ? 

We are young and only have 14-15 kids a game but our offense should be putting up more than 6-12 points a game. 

--6-12?  That's anemic.  How's your defense?

--Dave

 

Our defense is pretty decent but we struggle against the better teams. With only 15 kids, we have the same kids running both offense and defense so some kids never leave the field. Our offense is anemic because we have one kid who is truly a game breaker. He can score on his own. He is the best player on the field every game. We also don't run a series based offense so our offense is very predictable. Like I said, we have scored all on bootleg and 1 pass. I personally feel we could use our personel better but that is just me. At the end of the day I can make suggestions but the HC/OC is going to do his thing. And he said we were going to run Beast so I came here to get tips on it because I know Gumby has run it and he would be able to give me advise I could pass and and I did pass it on. Will he follow it? History says no or if he does, it won't be ran as it is designed. 


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @dimson

Right now we are a block the closest guy to you team. 

That's not a scheme. ? 

--Dave

You may call it "not a scheme", but what I take from it is that Dimson's players have experience lining up and identifying a particular opposing player they're supposed to block.  Which means it should be fairly easy to teach them a blocking rule other than "closest to you" that also allows them to find that opposing player.  It may be hard in some cases to break them of their impulse to do an "on" block, so it would be easiest to get them to follow rules that don't often make something other than "on" the priority.

I recall my frustration with an 8 YO in 2015 who just didn't "get" wedge blocking.  Why are you hitting him [indicating practice opponent] when you're supposed to hit him [indicating practice teammate]?


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @dimson

With only 15 kids, we have the same kids running both offense and defense so some kids never leave the field.

--That's not a problem in youth ball.  Heck, many (if not most) coaches start their identical best 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 players both ways.  

Our offense is anemic because we have one kid who is truly a game breaker.

--You don't need a "game breaker" when you're able to get 3-4 yards per carry.  Having a "game breaker" is just a luxury.

He can score on his own. He is the best player on the field every game. We also don't run a series based offense so our offense is very predictable.

--Well then, there ya go.  But you don't necessarily have to run a "series based" offense.  Just run a real one with real plays.  Y'know, where all 11 players have their own assignment (and it doesn't start with "Just....")

Like I said, we have scored all on bootleg and 1 pass. I personally feel we could use our personel better but that is just me. At the end of the day I can make suggestions but the HC/OC is going to do his thing.

--Sounds like he's doing it, alright.

And he said we were going to run Beast so I came here to get tips on it because I know Gumby has run it and he would be able to give me advise I could pass and and I did pass it on. Will he follow it? History says no or if he does, it won't be ran as it is designed. 

--I've got Calande's old Beast playbook, if you're interested.  Hit me up at coachdmp@aol.com if you're really interested.  (Y'know Steve coaches GOOD/GOD.  That'll likely make your HC's head explode. lol)

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @bob-goodman

what I take from it is that Dimson's players have experience lining up and identifying a particular opposing player they're supposed to block.  Which means it should be fairly easy to teach them a blocking rule

--Yes, it should.  If they had a COACH who knew how to teach it.  That is the Number One Excuse (oops, I mean "reason") that coaches give for teaching base blocking.  "Kids can't pull, learn rules, etc."  It's all BS of course, that's designed to cover their own lack of knowledge and teaching ability.

It may be hard in some cases to break them of their impulse to do an "on" block

--Especially in mid-season.  But we changed our offensive line from a 2-point stance to a 3-point stance in mid-season, so things like that can be done.  I just don't recommend it.

I recall my frustration with an 8 YO in 2015 who just didn't "get" wedge blocking.  Why are you hitting him [indicating practice opponent] when you're supposed to hit him [indicating practice teammate]?

--Bob, please don't tell me you goofed up an opportunity to teach the world's greatest offensive play...

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @bob-goodman

what I take from it is that Dimson's players have experience lining up and identifying a particular opposing player they're supposed to block. 

I strongly suspect that they don't really identify anyone, or you have 7 different ideas of whom to identify. This suspicion is bolstered by the 6-12 points per game that only happen if the best player in the league is running the ball.

Objectively, Beast is a crap formation. It's a great offense, but a crap formation. Extremely predictable, but if it's executed well, can you stop it? Very limited counter game. Very limited passing game. So as a formation? Why bother if you don't treat it as an offense?

We have had some "nice kids" at RB since 2nd grade. We got away from Beast because none of these "nice kids" could (would?) run the way we needed them to. When they couldn't (wouldn't?) run the way we needed them to in whatever offense we went with that year, we would go back to Beast and have at least some success. This season, 4 kids have graduated. 2 more are "good enough". We have the luxury of spreading the ball around and as an added bonus, the players run hard vertically with vision and power in our non-beast plays.

But it took YEARS to get to this point. In fact, I'd say that the biggest blessing in disguise is that our most talented backs in 2nd, 3rd and 4th grade moved on to greener pastures. This forced us to work on the "nice kids" we've had since 2nd grade and they have rewarded us for trusting them and investing in them.

Point is, I'm not very optimistic about Dimson's team having success with any offense. "Give it to the best player in the league . . .minus the best player in the league." They might as well line up in 5 wide empty and throw all verticals every play. I tried to have an open mind and actually drew up "block the man closest to you" against different fronts. DP is 100% right. This is not a scheme. It's a damn shame his kids have been subjected to this. I offered up TKO because it's blitz proof and if executed with a little competence, opens enormous holes with an unbalanced line. I figured Dimson could install it, especially with help over the phone or via chat. I do not think his HC an OC will let him install it, I don't think they will try to install it and I don't think they could if they tried. 

Sorry Dimson. 

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @coachdp

I recall my frustration with an 8 YO in 2015 who just didn't "get" wedge blocking.  Why are you hitting him [indicating practice opponent] when you're supposed to hit him [indicating practice teammate]?

--Bob, please don't tell me you goofed up an opportunity to teach the world's greatest offensive play...

 No, just moved him to the edge where it hardly mattered.


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Dimson
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @bob-goodman

what I take from it is that Dimson's players have experience lining up and identifying a particular opposing player they're supposed to block. 

I strongly suspect that they don't really identify anyone, or you have 7 different ideas of whom to identify. This suspicion is bolstered by the 6-12 points per game that only happen if the best player in the league is running the ball.

Objectively, Beast is a crap formation. It's a great offense, but a crap formation. Extremely predictable, but if it's executed well, can you stop it? Very limited counter game. Very limited passing game. So as a formation? Why bother if you don't treat it as an offense?

We have had some "nice kids" at RB since 2nd grade. We got away from Beast because none of these "nice kids" could (would?) run the way we needed them to. When they couldn't (wouldn't?) run the way we needed them to in whatever offense we went with that year, we would go back to Beast and have at least some success. This season, 4 kids have graduated. 2 more are "good enough". We have the luxury of spreading the ball around and as an added bonus, the players run hard vertically with vision and power in our non-beast plays.

But it took YEARS to get to this point. In fact, I'd say that the biggest blessing in disguise is that our most talented backs in 2nd, 3rd and 4th grade moved on to greener pastures. This forced us to work on the "nice kids" we've had since 2nd grade and they have rewarded us for trusting them and investing in them.

Point is, I'm not very optimistic about Dimson's team having success with any offense. "Give it to the best player in the league . . .minus the best player in the league." They might as well line up in 5 wide empty and throw all verticals every play. I tried to have an open mind and actually drew up "block the man closest to you" against different fronts. DP is 100% right. This is not a scheme. It's a damn shame his kids have been subjected to this. I offered up TKO because it's blitz proof and if executed with a little competence, opens enormous holes with an unbalanced line. I figured Dimson could install it, especially with help over the phone or via chat. I do not think his HC an OC will let him install it, I don't think they will try to install it and I don't think they could if they tried. 

Sorry Dimson. 

I am going to get a chance to install it but I only get one practice to do it. I think TKO will work great because the teams that give us the biggest issue our teams that blitz and try and overwhelm our line. TKO will work great if I can keep them on their tracks(and if it doesn't make my other coach's heads exsplode). My HC came from an org that ran Beast so he should know how to install it. But based on my conversation with him yesterday, I am not sure he has actually ran or installed Beast and if he has, it wasn't with blocking rules. I know I can do it as long as I am given proper time and help to do it. 


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @dimson

I am going to get a chance to install it but I only get one practice to do it. I think TKO will work great because the teams that give us the biggest issue our teams that blitz and try and overwhelm our line. TKO will work great if I can keep them on their tracks(and if it doesn't make my other coach's heads exsplode). My HC came from an org that ran Beast so he should know how to install it. But based on my conversation with him yesterday, I am not sure he has actually ran or installed Beast and if he has, it wasn't with blocking rules. I know I can do it as long as I am given proper time and help to do it. 

That's great. I'm excited.  I'd suggest trying the Potter "Coach backward" method.  Put them in the wall with proper fit (inside shoulder tight to buddy's outside shoulder), so they know what the objective looks like. Let them walk, then jog to their landmarks. Once they are comfortable, have them SPRINT to their landmarks, then buzz their feet to the whistle. Give them 1 or 2 guys to push down the line. Then, make sure they understand that no one is allowed to get between them and their inside buddy. Have one of the defenders back out of the wall and try to run around it. Make sure no one chases him.

Finally, you can show them a walkup blitz, then a blitz from depth. You can install this easily in 15 minutes if you limit your narration. Key words, key words, key words. "Protect your buddy", "help your buddy", "stay in your track", "buzz feet", "no one gets through", "fast, fast fast".

Teach your backs to sprint to their blocks. I mean, they need to fly. Otherwise, they will tip toe and cause a log jam. Send inside sniffer out and outside sniffer in. Tell the middle sniffer who to block by number. Do this in the game as well. If you get the kickout on the right guy, Beast runs itself. 

Also, put a towel or something in the RB's belt. Put a fast kid on the short side and tell him to catch the RB and pull his towel. RB does push ups if he gets the towel pulled before 4 yards.

Instruct "GET US 4". That is your mantra. After 4, he can do what he wants.  

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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terrypjohnson
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@dimson - I hear what you're saying... I had the same problem this year. I'm already coaching extra sports so that I'm a header in football next year. 

In addition to the advice above, I'd highly recommend going to CoachParker.org for the Beast. I've learned a lot about the Beast from his Power Wing Beast Playbook. In addition to the plays, he gives you multiple options about how to block it. Based on what you've said in this thread, I think you'll find the section on JAW blocking to be helpful (it's very similar to SAB).

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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terrypjohnson
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Here's one play my sons team ran... Beast Wide 88 Tallywhacker Toss

In case you're wondering about the name, the QB initially pitched the ball from his chest like chest pass in basketball. To get him to pitch from the right spot, he made a joke about it.

 

 

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @terrypjohnson

Here's one play my sons team ran... Beast Wide 88 Tallywhacker Toss

In case you're wondering about the name, the QB initially pitched the ball from his chest like chest pass in basketball. To get him to pitch from the right spot, he made a joke about it.

 

I don't get the joke.


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