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spidermac
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November 14, 2019 7:25 am  

And #9's hands are outside the frame.  That's a hold.  😛

--Dave

Not if it isn't called 😛 look at that nice clean pocket...12 had time to do his taxes, make a sammich, and eat it too 🙂

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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November 14, 2019 7:33 am  

Not if it isn't called 😛 look at that nice clean pocket...12 had time to do his taxes, make a sammich, and eat it too 🙂

Yes, yes, very nice.  We could create a pocket like that too, if our linemen were grabbing cloth.  As it is, I'll take the more physical (and legal) approach.  😉 😛

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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spidermac
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November 14, 2019 8:01 am  

Yes, yes, very nice.  We could create a pocket like that too, if our linemen were grabbing cloth.  As it is, I'll take the more physical (and legal) approach.  😉 😛

--Dave

Oh good grief...now you are going to make me go through last years film too find an example of our oline tearing a hole in the defense 😛

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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CoachDP
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November 14, 2019 8:03 am  

Oh good grief...now you are going to make me go through last years film too find an example of our oline tearing a hole in the defense 😛

Absolutely.

Or, simply break free from that pact with Satan and start running the Double Wing again.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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terrypjohnson
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November 14, 2019 3:23 pm  

Interesting that coaches who teach hands blocking are so accepting of the fact that they get called for holding.

--Dave

This is why I used X-man blocking this year, and will again next season (over the vigorous objections of the All-Star coaches). I was never called for holding one time this year. I'm really glad you told me about this technique!!

Coach Terry

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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CoachDP
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November 14, 2019 5:35 pm  

This is why I used X-man blocking this year, and will again next season (over the vigorous objections of the All-Star coaches). I was never called for holding one time this year. I'm really glad you told me about this technique!

I hope it worked as a successful (and physical) blocking scheme, as well.  Regardless, I couldn't care less about what another coach thinks of it.  One thing about football coaches:  they tend to think more inside the box, to what they've seen on TV and the most conventional way of doing things while concerning themselves about what others (coaches/parents/fans) think.  Amazing that grown men are generally so small-minded (i.e., gutless) when it comes to coaching this sport.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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gumby_in_co
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November 14, 2019 6:33 pm  

Yes, yes, very nice.  We could create a pocket like that too, if our linemen were grabbing cloth.  As it is, I'll take the more physical (and legal) approach.  😉 😛

--Dave

Grabbing cloth by itself is not illegal.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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CoachDP
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November 14, 2019 8:48 pm  

Grabbing cloth by itself is not illegal.

No, but they are in the photo, as I stated:

And #9's hands are outside the frame.  That's a hold.  😛

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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November 14, 2019 8:55 pm  

you'll have to trust me that shoulder or flipper blocking is death with mega splits.

I understand that, Lar.  I do what I do because I run the ball.  A lot.  And I can get away with it on pass blocking because we don't have splits, we don't track backwards on pass protection and we want our pass game to look like our run game.  I wouldn't use X-Men with Air Raid, anymore than I'd use any fundamental technique that doesn't fit a particular scheme.  The OP is an I-Formation coach.  So when I reply to Chad, I already know that what we do will fit his scheme.  But there's no way it'll fit what you and Mike are doing.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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November 14, 2019 9:20 pm  

Not just our o-line, but also at the point of attack with our back and receivers.

Chad,

I haven't seen your vid but many players have trouble blocking in space.  And since Backs and Receivers aren't a few inches away from their opponent as linemen are, they have a greater challenge.  The biggest flaw I see when Backs and Receivers block poorly, is because they slow down/break down and stop moving their feet.  This is usually because they are trying not to miss the block.  They run to an area of the defender and then stop/slow as they see the defender approach.  It's as if they are trying to get in the way of the defender by mirroring, instead of blocking and then they miss because they've stopped, or are reaching because they're off-balance.  One of two (bad) things happen here:  the defender runs around and past the blocker, or the defender engages and drives the blocker backwards.  Add to that, Backs & Receivers often hit once (if they hit at all) and then release their man, instead of hitting continuously and welding themselves to the defender. 

We don't break down/gather/come to balance on the block.  We do teach our blockers to tackle, because we are very good at tackling in space.  And blocking is easier than tackling.  Tackling has 4 components: hit, wrap, drive and take down.  Blocking has only 2 components: hit and drive.  So after we warm up by tackling in space, we repeat the drill without the wrap and take down.  We also teach the drive/weld component at fit, as you and I talked about with how we teach tackling. 

Footwork is our other major component and we spend probably more time on that aspect than any other fundamental of the drive block.  Most players' feet are too close together, their steps are too long, or their knees step too high at engagement.  Feet need to be dragging the top of the grass at engagement.  The shorter the steps and the quicker the steps, the sooner their cleats will be back in the ground for full power.

Lastly, blocking is the only fundamental that we work on every day at practice, throughout the entire duration of practice. 

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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spidermac
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November 15, 2019 3:57 am  

Physical 🙂 and no holding that I saw...

Of course, all this said, I teach this because it's what I can teach...when I first started coaching linemen I tried teaching the shoulder blocking, but I sucked at it...so I started teaching hands blocking...and it works pretty well in the schemes that I run.

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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Rockets11
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November 15, 2019 8:16 am  

While I really appreciate a good debate on this forum and I will throw my two cents in, I first want to say that I am unsure if the problems Coach Chad had were because he used one blocking style over another. 

Flash forward to the playoffs semi-final game where we were matched up against a team, that while bigger and more athletic than us, has never beaten us.      They came at us aggressively and we had leakage everywhere.  Not just our o-line, but also at the point of attack with our back and receivers.

I have always taught hands blocking, but I think I need to reconsider.  We are the smallest team in the league, and that is going to continue.  We really wilted against an aggressive defensive pressure.  They were in our backfield all day.  I would appreciate any thoughts or experience with teaching shoulder blocking vs hands blocking as a more aggressive and better technique for a team that is going to be over-matched physically on game days.  All responses appreciated!

-Chad

If this team was bigger and more athletic and then more aggressive than your team, then it wasn't going to matter much what blocking surface you used.  You said it wasn't just on the line and that they beat you everywhere.  Sounds like they were a physically superior team across the board and it sounds like you guys weren't too focused on them coming in, that is tough to overcome.

I always considered problems with leakage and defenders in my backfield a footwork problem. 

If teams were getting a lot of penetration on our line, I knew that the problem was that we weren't getting our bodies in front of guys and that is a footwork issue. Either they were just way faster than us off the ball and we weren't getting our steps down quick enough or we weren't taking our proper steps.

I encourage you to go back and watch your film if you have it and watch your feet.  I'll bet that your guys aren't taking their proper steps or are just too slow off the ball.  You said you were wilting under the pressure, that likely means you weren't firing out.  If I am wrong and the footwork looked about right and your guys had good initial take off, then please correct me, but that is just my guess on where the majority of the issues came from.

Footwork issues and not firing off the ball are unrelated to it being hands or shoulders because neither of that changes how fast your feet move and for the most part other than maybe double team blocks, the steps used for specific blocks are pretty much the same for hand and shoulder blocking.  Never seen X-MEN blocking but would guess that it wouldn't be effective with improper footwork and being slow getting off the ball.

Sounds like you have had a fair amount of success with this group of kids with your current approach, that doesn't mean don't ever make changes or adapt, but I wouldn't jump the gun and be quick to scrap everything after one bad game.  Take some time to analyze.

Hope this helps.


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spidermac
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November 15, 2019 8:58 am  

While I really appreciate a good debate on this forum and I will throw my two cents in, I first want to say that I am unsure if the problems Coach Chad had were because he used one blocking style over another. 

If this team was bigger and more athletic and then more aggressive than your team, then it wasn't going to matter much what blocking surface you used.  You said it wasn't just on the line and that they beat you everywhere.  Sounds like they were a physically superior team across the board and it sounds like you guys weren't too focused on them coming in, that is tough to overcome.

I always considered problems with leakage and defenders in my backfield a footwork problem. 

If teams were getting a lot of penetration on our line, I knew that the problem was that we weren't getting our bodies in front of guys and that is a footwork issue. Either they were just way faster than us off the ball and we weren't getting our steps down quick enough or we weren't taking our proper steps.

I encourage you to go back and watch your film if you have it and watch your feet.  I'll bet that your guys aren't taking their proper steps or are just too slow off the ball.  You said you were wilting under the pressure, that likely means you weren't firing out.  If I am wrong and the footwork looked about right and your guys had good initial take off, then please correct me, but that is just my guess on where the majority of the issues came from.

Footwork issues and not firing off the ball are unrelated to it being hands or shoulders because neither of that changes how fast your feet move and for the most part other than maybe double team blocks, the steps used for specific blocks are pretty much the same for hand and shoulder blocking.  Never seen X-MEN blocking but would guess that it wouldn't be effective with improper footwork and being slow getting off the ball.

Sounds like you have had a fair amount of success with this group of kids with your current approach, that doesn't mean don't ever make changes or adapt, but I wouldn't jump the gun and be quick to scrap everything after one bad game.  Take some time to analyze.

Hope this helps.

Rockets...good post...and that was the point of my initial post in the thread...their feet are bad, and I went on to describe what we do to make sure that we don't have that problem...and sometimes...firing off the ball becomes the problem, especially with younger lineman...they fire in the direction where the bad guys is when the play starts...and they end up missing them completely, well...because the bad guy moved.

We preach to the boys...WE BLOCK WITH OUR FEET...and if you are called for holding, it means your feet weren't right, if you get beat, the likely answer is your feet weren't right, but sometimes...you are just overmatched...and with coaching, you can mitigate the times when you are overmatch...move your stinkin' feet 🙂

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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Rockets11
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November 15, 2019 10:10 am  

I don't believe in hands blocking for a run-based offense, for a variety of reasons.  We use X-Men, which is a forearms technique.  It's violent, physical, we don't get holding penalties (our fists are in our armpits),

It has been a couple of years since I have coached O line but taught hands blocking when I did and our teams were run first, second and third, however I have learned a lot from coaches who teach shoulder blocking (I really like Dave Cisar's O line material and teaching progression) and think shoulder blocking can be a very effective system as well.

Hands blocking is violent and physical as well. If it isn't, then it isn't being taught correctly. Punching somebody in the sternum and then shoving their own shoulder pads into their throat isn't very friendly.

As far holding penalties go, I think the most we had in a season was 4 or 5.  I know we had 2 consecutive years where we had no holding penalties on the offensive line. 

and it relies on the strongest area of the body (below the waist), instead of the weakest part of the body (the arms & hands) to drive a defender back.

I have seen this statement or similar ones repeatedly on this site from a number of people. It's ignorant at best and if not then just blatantly dishonest.  This is not how hands blocking works at all. In all blocks the legs and hips are what drives the defender.  Some people have the impression that hands blocking is a vertical bench press or something along those lines.  It's not. You don't  try to press or push anybody away, you want to keep them close and stay in their face.
--Dave

Coach Chad seemed to be having issues in that particular game with his lines aggressiveness and giving up too much penetration.  This isn't because he was using hands blocking in my opinion.  Any approach can be effective, violent and physical. I don't really think whether you use hands or shoulders is all that important because I know both will work if taught correctly.  Just depends on what you can teach best.  But as Spider and DP keep reiterating, the feet are what makes or breaks the o line.


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acsmith7062
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November 15, 2019 10:28 am  

I completely agree about the feet, and my kids have a bad tendency to stop moving their feet and reach with their hands.  The aggressiveness of the other team really exposed this issue.  My thought on switching to shoulder blocking is maybe they will be less likely to stop moving their feet because reaching with their hands is no longer an option.  To put a shoulder or forearms on a defender requires that you move your entire body into the defender.  I know there is no “easy” fix to this issue.  I just want to explore other options before we get started next season.  Thank you for all the responses.  Keep em coming!

-Chad

"You fail all the time, but you aren't a failure until you start blaming someone else."   O.A. "Bum" Phillips


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