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Wing-n-It
(@robert)
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Joined: 11 years ago
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That reminds me that Michael gave me the idea of having a snap count where we used a name. That way when the kids came to the LOS, I could yell from the sideline “HEY, WHERE’S CHARLIE?” and the team goes on Charlie.

Pretty brilliant idea for a couple times a game. I’ve never tried it but I def plan to.

Ours was similar but it was something like "Wedge on 10"

The way we played it is we would line up normal and go through our cadence and our typical snap word was "HIT" so instead of them having to count to 10 HITs the QB would just do the HIT, HIT, HIT and if no one jumped pause and then say "TEN"

It worked

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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Posts: 17794
 

That reminds me that Michael gave me the idea of having a snap count where we used a name. That way when the kids came to the LOS, I could yell from the sideline “HEY, WHERE’S CHARLIE?” and the team goes on Charlie.

Pretty brilliant idea for a couple times a game. I’ve never tried it but I def plan to.

Many officials will flag that if you (sideline) are participating in the on-field play.  It will fall somewhere under an "unsportsmanlike" or "snap is/isn't imminent" rule.  I'd check with your officials pre-game (or pre-season) about it.  Remember, the game should be 11 on 11, not 12 on 11.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Geoketc
(@geoketc)
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 25
Topic starter  

I received a PM from the OP.  He opened up a bit more of what he dealt with, last season.  I suggested he continue to post here because of the amount of assistance he'll receive.  I also gave him my number if he wanted to call.  We'll see... The ball's in his court.

--Dave

Sorry guys, not only am I trying to figure out a offense, I am also trying to figure out how to write threads on this message board.

This is my first year coaching so I started with just running an I formation with heads up blocking. That got us killed. Hurricane Florence came through and shut down football for a while so I went to a spread and shotgun formation to give my quarterback time. When we started playing again, my quarterback was able to at least handle the ball without getting killed but never had time to throw the ball. Running in any gaps was nonexistent. Everything had to be around the edge and usually it was just the quarterback running for his life. Because of the hurricane our season was shortened. We only played 4 games. By the fourth game we were finally making positive yardage but only by attacking the edge and getting around the corner. Nothing with the quarterback under center because the defense is coming too quickly.

So far from what I have read, I like the double wing and would like to try that next year. 

We have speed just not size. I don't get many returning players because coaching on a base the parents are transferring and the kids never stay in one place and in a program for more than two years. So I need an offense that is easy to teach. I have free rein with which direction the team goes and what we run on offense and defense.  We definitely are not going to run anyone over so I need an offense that will give my blockers some help.


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COACH JC
(@winged)
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Joined: 9 years ago
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Many officials will flag that if you (sideline) are participating in the on-field play.  It will fall somewhere under an "unsportsmanlike" or "snap is/isn't imminent" rule.  I'd check with your officials pre-game (or pre-season) about it.  Remember, the game should be 11 on 11, not 12 on 11.

--Dave

Good point. Tho I doubt anyone would realize what was going on if it was once or twice a game. Seems like it might be a good call in a 4th and 1 situation.

It’d be interesting to learn the rules on that though. I know there’s an all deaf team out here that uses drums for their snap count, which in theory would be no different than yelling a count from the sideline. Granted the all deaf school might have a special exception.

It's all about having fun.  But losing aint fun!


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COACH JC
(@winged)
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Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 6999
 

Sorry guys, not only am I trying to figure out a offense, I am also trying to figure out how to write threads on this message board.

This is my first year coaching so I started with just running an I formation with heads up blocking. That got us killed. Hurricane Florence came through and shut down football for a while so I went to a spread and shotgun formation to give my quarterback time. When we started playing again, my quarterback was able to at least handle the ball without getting killed but never had time to throw the ball. Running in any gaps was nonexistent. Everything had to be around the edge and usually it was just the quarterback running for his life. Because of the hurricane our season was shortened. We only played 4 games. By the fourth game we were finally making positive yardage but only by attacking the edge and getting around the corner. Nothing with the quarterback under center because the defense is coming too quickly.

So far from what I have read, I like the double wing and would like to try that next year. 

We have speed just not size. I don't get many returning players because coaching on a base the parents are transferring and the kids never stay in one place and in a program for more than two years. So I need an offense that is easy to teach. I have free rein with which direction the team goes and what we run on offense and defense.  We definitely are not going to run anyone over so I need an offense that will give my blockers some help.

DTDW is a great offense. Wing T was built for smaller teams. Either will help you get on the right track.

If you’re just “base” blocking now, any system you get from here will be a vast upgrade. I don’t think you’ll find a coach on this board that isn’t either rule or zone blocking team.

W/ this added context, the answer to your original post would be to choose a blocking scheme/system, learn it, implement it, then adjust as needed to various blitzes you’re seeing.

It's all about having fun.  But losing aint fun!


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blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
Silver
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 847
 

Sorry guys, not only am I trying to figure out a offense, I am also trying to figure out how to write threads on this message board.

This is my first year coaching so I started with just running an I formation with heads up blocking. That got us killed. Hurricane Florence came through and shut down football for a while so I went to a spread and shotgun formation to give my quarterback time. When we started playing again, my quarterback was able to at least handle the ball without getting killed but never had time to throw the ball. Running in any gaps was nonexistent. Everything had to be around the edge and usually it was just the quarterback running for his life. Because of the hurricane our season was shortened. We only played 4 games. By the fourth game we were finally making positive yardage but only by attacking the edge and getting around the corner. Nothing with the quarterback under center because the defense is coming too quickly.

So far from what I have read, I like the double wing and would like to try that next year. 

We have speed just not size. I don't get many returning players because coaching on a base the parents are transferring and the kids never stay in one place and in a program for more than two years. So I need an offense that is easy to teach. I have free rein with which direction the team goes and what we run on offense and defense.  We definitely are not going to run anyone over so I need an offense that will give my blockers some help.

It's good to see you return, coach!

I typed up a big long response to you via PM, but I think the site crashed when I hit "send" and it got vaporized.  I hope you got it.

The Double Wing is good for inexperienced coaches because it's very simple and it's already packaged together so you have what you need there without getting distracted by stuff you don't.  You can go far with a 1-2 formations and a simple core of Power, Counter, Sweep, Wedge, Power Pass, and Bootleg.

The other good thing about the Double Wing is that it emphasizes teaching blocking--and just a few kinds of blocks--to everyone on the team, so positions become interchangeable and you can run it with 1 coach if absolutely necessary.  It's very "user friendly" in those respects.

You can say the same things about the Single Wing--and it looks more "modern" to a lot of people because of the direct snaps instead of going under center, plus it has some funky wrinkles in it that really mess with youth defenses who don't know how to adjust or stop it.

With that said, it sounds like your #1 issue is just learning how to coach blocking--and not just teaching them *who* to block (which can be tricky enough), but also the technique of *how* to block.  There's a lot of technique that goes into it, which a lot of new coaches don't realize at first, which makes OL the hardest and most important position on the field to play and coach.

Once you know how to coach blocking, you'll be able to run any offense you like.  Only then will the answers to "how to run an offense against a constant all-out blitz" actually be of any use to you.  A good rule of thumb is that they can't bring 8 from both sides at once.  They also can't bring 8 and cover 4 receivers.  Use those two bits of information to your advantage.


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Wing-n-It
(@robert)
Platinum Moderator
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 3872
 

The Double Wing is good for inexperienced coaches because it's very simple and it's already packaged together so you have what you need there without getting distracted by stuff you don't. 

I'm not trying to argue here but I think every DW post suggesting the DW to a coach who hasn't coached it before should come with a caveat

Double wing caveat:
The DW is a very powerful offense that balances the shift of Power from talent to less talent.
Running the DW requires a level of stubbornness, StickToItivness if you will, among anything else. If you think you are going to change the slightest bit please don't take on the DW. But if you will detach yourself from the haters, the naysayers, the uneducated you will be fine running the DW. If you will diagnose what's wrong with the play when it doesn't work and fix the play instead of adding more plays, then the DW is for you. If you can remove yourself from the parents and other coaches who think you're nuts for running this funny formation, then the DW is for you.
If you can give 2 shits what anybody else thinks and you can stay the course, then this offense is definitely  for you.

Just like aggression drills this offense requires a mindset not just a formation. You have to go all in, you cant just dabble in its greatness, you have to jump in both feet.

There is plenty of help here and I hope you go with the DW. Being military families you deal with I think you're going to be fine.

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge


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angalton
(@angalton)
Platinum
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 2552
 

Sorry guys, not only am I trying to figure out a offense, I am also trying to figure out how to write threads on this message board.

This is my first year coaching so I started with just running an I formation with heads up blocking. That got us killed. Hurricane Florence came through and shut down football for a while so I went to a spread and shotgun formation to give my quarterback time. When we started playing again, my quarterback was able to at least handle the ball without getting killed but never had time to throw the ball. Running in any gaps was nonexistent. Everything had to be around the edge and usually it was just the quarterback running for his life. Because of the hurricane our season was shortened. We only played 4 games. By the fourth game we were finally making positive yardage but only by attacking the edge and getting around the corner. Nothing with the quarterback under center because the defense is coming too quickly.

So far from what I have read, I like the double wing and would like to try that next year. 

We have speed just not size. I don't get many returning players because coaching on a base the parents are transferring and the kids never stay in one place and in a program for more than two years. So I need an offense that is easy to teach. I have free rein with which direction the team goes and what we run on offense and defense.  We definitely are not going to run anyone over so I need an offense that will give my blockers some help.

Double Wing is simple, but very coaching intensive. You can get plenty of help on the DW on this forum. The offense you chose will not fix the problems. There are plenty of bad DW teams out there, that goes for any offense. Your approach is the key.

The greatest accomplishment is not in never failing, but in rising again after you fail.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17794
 

It’d be interesting to learn the rules on that though.

--Ya think?

I know there’s an all deaf team out here that uses drums for their snap count, which in theory would be no different than yelling a count from the sideline. Granted the all deaf school might have a special exception.

--I can see you having a meeting with the officials about it and the all-deaf school ends up having to run their plays without the drum.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17794
 

I don’t think you’ll find a coach on this board that isn’t either rule or zone blocking team.

I don't think there's a successful coach on here who isn't a block-first guy.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17794
 

Running the DW requires a level of stubbornness, StickToItivness if you will

Here's the thing:  if you have success with it straight out of the box, you're likely to say this is the greatest thing ever invented.  If you struggle with it, then you'll probably end up ditching it as the stupidest thing you've tried yet.  Your parents, players and staff will then only agree with you.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17794
 

The Double Wing is good for inexperienced coaches because it's very simple and it's already packaged together so you have what you need there without getting distracted by stuff you don't.  You can go far with a 1-2 formations and a simple core of Power, Counter, Sweep, Wedge, Power Pass, and Bootleg.

--I agree with your reasons stating the DW's simplicity.  But like anything else, the devil is in the details and I think this details are what make this offense a challenge to coach.  It definitely takes all 11 on offense to make it work.  Various Spread approaches are content to simply play Throw-N-Catch with 2 players and widen out the defense with their line splits so they have enough time to throw the ball.  That's the coaching appeal of the Spread and the unattractiveness of the Double Wing. 

You can say the same things about the Single Wing--and it looks more "modern" to a lot of people because of the direct snaps instead of going under center, plus it has some funky wrinkles in it that really mess with youth defenses who don't know how to adjust or stop it.

--True.  But it sounds so funny to me that the Single Wing looks more modern.  Shows how cyclical the game is.

With that said, it sounds like your #1 issue is just learning how to coach blocking--and not just teaching them *who* to block (which can be tricky enough), but also the technique of *how* to block.  There's a lot of technique that goes into it, which a lot of new coaches don't realize at first, which makes OL the hardest and most important position on the field to play and coach.

--You have to know WHAT fundamentals you want to teach.  Then you have to know HOW to teach those fundamentals.  I've seen plenty of coaches waste time on fundamentals that aren't specific to their scheme.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17794
 

To the OP.  Buy (and read) a copy of Vallotton's "The Toss."  If you still want to coach the Double Wing after that, I will help you 24/7/365.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
Silver
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 847
 

I'm not trying to argue here but I think every DW post suggesting the DW to a coach who hasn't coached it before should come with a caveat

Double wing caveat:
The DW is a very powerful offense that balances the shift of Power from talent to less talent.
Running the DW requires a level of stubbornness, StickToItivness if you will, among anything else. If you think you are going to change the slightest bit please don't take on the DW. But if you will detach yourself from the haters, the naysayers, the uneducated you will be fine running the DW. If you will diagnose what's wrong with the play when it doesn't work and fix the play instead of adding more plays, then the DW is for you. If you can remove yourself from the parents and other coaches who think you're nuts for running this funny formation, then the DW is for you.
If you can give 2 shits what anybody else thinks and you can stay the course, then this offense is definitely  for you.

Just like aggression drills this offense requires a mindset not just a formation. You have to go all in, you cant just dabble in its greatness, you have to jump in both feet.

There is plenty of help here and I hope you go with the DW. Being military families you deal with I think you're going to be fine.

This is absolutely true.  All of it.

When I mentioned that the OP needs to learn how to coach blocking, he's going to have to learn the basics of how to coach every single block.  The good thing about the double wing is that you can do it with fewer types of blocks, IMO.

There are a lot of details in there, absolutely.  Diving into the Double Wing and committing to it means that now you're going to dedicate yourself to getting really, really good at a few things and learn the ins and outs, which include the precise footwork on down blocks, how to call plays in a series, how to adjust and fix stuff that's not working.  You have fewer variables to worry about, which is great for an inexperienced coach, but it also forces you to get a lot better at coaching the few variables you have.

We also need to remember that every "complete" offense really has a lot of details that need coaching.  Yes, there are some coaches who just get in 4 wide and throw to the same 1 or 2 guys all game and get by on big plays by studs... but I don't think there are too many of those out there having consistent success.  If you want to run a spread offense, and I mean *really* run it and be good at it, there's a ton of wrinkles there, too.  Same goes for option, wing-t, I formation, you name it.


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PSLCOACHROB
(@pslcoachrob)
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Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 12408
 

The easiest offense I know is Cisar's single wing. His version of the sw is very similar to the dw. The blocking schemes are the same, zero splits, series play calling, same plays, and they both use wedge. The big difference is less moving parts. The great thing about the dw and the sw is the amount of support here. Cisar's sw comes with a bit of a finacial investment though as do some of the dw packages. But all of those packages are great and worth every penny. There are free versions of both out there.

Then you have beast. Beast is an old sw formation that is stupid simple but a pita to stop.


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