Jet Sweep Questions
 
Notifications
Clear all

Jet Sweep Questions

Page 2 / 4

Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
Diamond
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 9601
 
Posted by: @coach-kyle
Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @coach-kyle

Coaches,

 

My organization would like to build off of the jet sweep as a fundamental play. My age group is going to be 8/9 year olds. Any advice on making this work at this level? I think we're going to go shotgun.

Going shotgun handicaps the speed and deception of jet.  Do you have any choice in that matter?

You've probably seen what I've had to say, which is that if you're willing to limit the jet to one direction, the best compromise in ease and deception is to have the QB taking the snap hand-to-hands while already facing the jet runner as he's coming.

I think our organization would actually like me to be under center. I like the simplicity of the rest of the offense when you're in shotgun. Just pull and run. Plus with 8/9 year olds the waggle isn't such a great play.

I've been having a hell of a time finding a youth team online that runs the jet/trap/waggle from under center. I'm open to it for sure, but I need to see it on grass, not just paper.

Too bad we didn't have anyone recording in 2015, except for one parent whose videos I was told about but never able to access.

As to waggle, even the Delaware wing T team I coached since 2017 hasn't waggled often.  Practiced it enough, but being deeper in the sequence than the other plays, and the QB not being a terrific passer or runner, it remained a relatively unattractive call even as the players got much older than 8 and 9.  My question to you is, what's so important about waggle that you would list it as "jet/trap/waggle from under center"?

The essence of waggle is a delayed counter, usually with a passing option.  The blocking proficiency of youth teams is greatest when you can hit the defense fast.  The longer the play needs to get out of the immediate backfield, the more the advantage turns to the defense as the blockers need, not to open a quick gap in the defense, but to keep them out of the offense's backfield.  The jet gets a runner quickly to one side.  The trap quickly opens a hole in the middle.  I had a slant trap like a scissors to the WB, but the counter to it was not much like a waggle but rather an inside counter by the QB.  The tenor of waggle is something slower than jet or any kind of quick hitter; if you're looking specifically for a change of pace, OK, but if you're just looking for something that goes in the opposite direction from the jet, I think you have better ways of doing it with children.

The way we were doing it, the ball was frequently snapped deep with the QB becoming an extra blocker, so we were not lacking for plays that got out of the backfield quickly in either direction besides the jet.  So we had the advantage of what you're looking for in shotgun while the ballhandling of the jet/fake took place just behind the line and with the jet runner going behind the QB, hiding the action better.  Not quite the deception you can get with a straight-ahead-facing QB doing a half or full spin, but much easier to execute.  And both easier to execute and more deceptive than in front in shotgun.

This post was modified 1 month ago by Bob Goodman

ReplyQuote
Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
Diamond
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 9601
 
Posted by: @seth54

@coach-kyle

 

We ran some jet, but it’s never been a staple, despite having good backs. We see a lot of 5-3 fronts and those stand up DEs box the edge pretty aggressively and stop a lot of Jets because they jump out in front of the motion man. Definitely need a counter, even a QB or FB wedge seem to work.

How about belly to that side?


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 23131
 

Jet with Smurfs. 

Some things I have learned over the years. No long motions. Matter of fact real short or no motion jet sweeps are just as good at this level because the kittens on the Defense will always chase the string. 

You must have a hanging WB or Slot play side to seal the edge. Reaching an EMOL at this level is futile. Last time we went jet as the base was with 7 years olds. We went Empty and loaded up blockers playside. Counters were one handoff jet reverses or QB keep off jet action. Then we had a QB wedge and a pass. Worked well. 

All of this from under center. 

This post was modified 1 month ago by mahonz

What is beautiful, lives forever.


tiger46 and Seth54 liked
ReplyQuote
Coach Kyle
(@coach-kyle)
Platinum
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 3894
Topic starter  

@bob-goodman

You're right. We're not looking to run waggle specifically. It definitely seems like waggle is not my favorite out of jet motion. The QB is shallow, and that doesn't give him enough clearance to boot well enough. 

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


ReplyQuote
Coach Kyle
(@coach-kyle)
Platinum
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 3894
Topic starter  

@bob-goodman

I'm strongly considering belly to the jet side, yes.

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


ReplyQuote
Coach Kyle
(@coach-kyle)
Platinum
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 3894
Topic starter  
Posted by: @mahonz

Jet with Smurfs. 

Some things I have learned over the years. No long motions. Matter of fact real short or no motion jet sweeps are just as good at this level because the kittens on the Defense will always chase the string. 

You must have a hanging WB or Slot play side to seal the edge. Reaching an EMOL at this level is futile. Last time we went jet as the base was with 7 years olds. We went Empty and loaded up blockers playside. Counters were one handoff jet reverses or QB keep off jet action. Then we had a QB wedge and a pass. Worked well. 

All of this from under center. 

As far as the long motion. I received the film from last year. My team didn't motion. They just lined up in flex and ran jet. However, the final game was against a team that did run some jet, and they ran it really well. They had a wide out motion from across the field, and they ran it as well as any jet. They didn't pull their guards, but I'd believe that they could leave a 3 tech unblocked. I'm willing to bet that we could get it... although I'm not sure it's worth the time investment.

 

The reach block seems to be the real trick. You can't reliably reach block the EMLOS, and I would bet that it's difficult to read blocks consistently if you're the jet back. The crack is a must. If it's our bread and butter we'll probably also want an auto kick and the good old fashioned reach block.

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 23131
 
Posted by: @coach-kyle
Posted by: @mahonz

Jet with Smurfs. 

Some things I have learned over the years. No long motions. Matter of fact real short or no motion jet sweeps are just as good at this level because the kittens on the Defense will always chase the string. 

You must have a hanging WB or Slot play side to seal the edge. Reaching an EMOL at this level is futile. Last time we went jet as the base was with 7 years olds. We went Empty and loaded up blockers playside. Counters were one handoff jet reverses or QB keep off jet action. Then we had a QB wedge and a pass. Worked well. 

All of this from under center. 

As far as the long motion. I received the film from last year. My team didn't motion. They just lined up in flex and ran jet. However, the final game was against a team that did run some jet, and they ran it really well. They had a wide out motion from across the field, and they ran it as well as any jet. They didn't pull their guards, but I'd believe that they could leave a 3 tech unblocked. I'm willing to bet that we could get it... although I'm not sure it's worth the time investment.

 

The reach block seems to be the real trick. You can't reliably reach block the EMLOS, and I would bet that it's difficult to read blocks consistently if you're the jet back. The crack is a must. If it's our bread and butter we'll probably also want an auto kick and the good old fashioned reach block.

A proficient jet motion team should not have to block any backside 2,3,4,or 5 tech when sweeping. We would actually drill this. The best I have ever done with this philosophy at the younger ages was about 15 years ago with 9 year olds. 

I had a QB that couldn't hit a house throwing the football but man o man could he deal cards ( the football) to meshing backs. As mentioned up Thread....one good fake is worth two good blocks. That is very true. 

Are you familiar with Mark Spekmans Red Light Green Light sweeps? Or his Fly Offense? Lots of nuggets for Speed Sweeping. 

The best play in any jet sweep Offense...the jet reverse. Its so good you can use it as a base play. Think DW XX but the Wings are further apart with no Orbiting. 

Speaking of Orbits. When I put in a jet package with the semi pros the Wings preferred the Orbit because they were further away from the LOS and had better vision. 

Using a simple ACE formation with a 3 man mesh....Jet is QB meshes with the jet man running a flat motion first / RB second then boots away. In Orbit or what some call Rocket....QB meshes with the RB first then the motion man who motions at depth second then boots away. Both are deadly deceptive actions that is almost completely lost in shotgun. 

 

This post was modified 1 month ago 2 times by mahonz

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 23131
 

Here is some film of Auburn Style Wing T with Jet motions from shotgun. You can see how deep the motion man aligns and the RB offset. That was for simplicity for the mesh path to get it as tight as possible. It was OK....Im an under Center fan but if you watch the LB'rs you can see them freeze. This was against a pretty good Defense. Meshing is never tight enough for me from the gun....your snap has to be perfect so the quality of meshing suffers. Still....the Defense has to respect a 3 man meshing backfield. 

We used our H Back as the key blocker....you can see him align in different spots across the formation. 

These were 6th graders. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
Dusty Ol Fart
(@youth-coach)
Diamond
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 7683
 

I have to ask.  Why would you want to base your offense on a play that in Most offensive systems has Blocking Rules "Proprietary" to that play?

In other words most folks would have a series of plays that use similar blocking (Rules or Principles) adjusted to the strength or pre-snap position of the defenders. Sweeps and Counter plays are, in most instances, mutually exclusive from the blocking rules or principles applied to the other running plays in a system.  For most of us the term Sweep implies you are going well outside the Tackle position, hence the need for specific blocking rules to account for the differences in the plays objective.  

Example. Wishbone Offense.  Predicated on the Fullback and plays using same or RB between the Tackles and/or TE position.  Dive, Midline, Double Dive.  Blocking rules are known and accomplished using aforementioned pre snap or strength reads.  As with the Sweep, when the Option is added there is a completely different set of Blocking Rules used to accomplish the Option.  Generally speaking the rules for the 2 are somewhat similar. How to blocking the 4 defenders closest to the Sideline on the play side. 

To my thinking Running a Sweep every play is pretty hard to accomplish against a good defense add to the fact that there really isn't anything that "Plays Off" the Sweep unless you in for a Double Reverse which would have its own set of rules.  

Thinking Out Loud.    

 

Caveat:

We are talking about very young players ergo give the ball to the fast kid does work, that is until you run into a team that has faster kids!  LOL

 

      

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


ReplyQuote
CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17796
 
Posted by: @youth-coach

 Caveat:

We are talking about very young players ergo give the ball to the fast kid does work, that is until you run into a team that has faster kids!

Or you face a defense that is correct in alignment and fundamentally sound, thus is not going to allow the "fast kid" to get outside.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 23131
 
Posted by: @youth-coach

I have to ask.  Why would you want to base your offense on a play that in Most offensive systems has Blocking Rules "Proprietary" to that play?

In other words most folks would have a series of plays that use similar blocking (Rules or Principles) adjusted to the strength or pre-snap position of the defenders. Sweeps and Counter plays are, in most instances, mutually exclusive from the blocking rules or principles applied to the other running plays in a system.  For most of us the term Sweep implies you are going well outside the Tackle position, hence the need for specific blocking rules to account for the differences in the plays objective.  

Example. Wishbone Offense.  Predicated on the Fullback and plays using same or RB between the Tackles and/or TE position.  Dive, Midline, Double Dive.  Blocking rules are known and accomplished using aforementioned pre snap or strength reads.  As with the Sweep, when the Option is added there is a completely different set of Blocking Rules used to accomplish the Option.  Generally speaking the rules for the 2 are somewhat similar. How to blocking the 4 defenders closest to the Sideline on the play side. 

To my thinking Running a Sweep every play is pretty hard to accomplish against a good defense add to the fact that there really isn't anything that "Plays Off" the Sweep unless you in for a Double Reverse which would have its own set of rules.  

Thinking Out Loud.    

 

Caveat:

We are talking about very young players ergo give the ball to the fast kid does work, that is until you run into a team that has faster kids!  LOL

 

      

If you want to jet motion every down you better have some speed. But you don't run jet sweep every snap. That would be silly. 

Its called the Unity of Apparent Intent. The more intent you show the Defense with ONE backfield action is key. 

We tried putting in our little jet Offense with Lar's Team when they were 2nd graders. It didn't work. Why? No speed. We tried a few work arounds from past experiences but you don't use work arounds with Rookie Smurfs. YET...the previous 2nd grade team we ran it with 7 years early crushed it. 

The Blocking is actually stoopid simple for the little guys.....speed left.... speed right....wedge. We used two different colored socks and then tagged left and right as a color. That helps. 

Have to remember a good block at this level is simply getting in a Defenders way. With a 7 man blocking surface you will get 4 doing a great job and 3 thinking about hamburgers if the concession stand is close by. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 23131
 
Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @youth-coach

 Caveat:

We are talking about very young players ergo give the ball to the fast kid does work, that is until you run into a team that has faster kids!

Or you face a defense that is correct in alignment and fundamentally sound, thus is not going to allow the "fast kid" to get outside.

--Dave

The day that consistently happens at the Smurf Level will be the first time it ever happens. At least half of all TD's score are....accidental. 

Here is an eventual Championship Defense chitting the bed like only they could do. They are kids. They ruin the best laid plans. 😎 

One guy! One guy! 🤣 Our DC was having a fit. I think these are 5th graders so a little Smurfie but not Super Smurfie. 

 

This post was modified 1 month ago by mahonz

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
Platinum
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 4423
 
Posted by: @youth-coach

I have to ask.  Why would you want to base your offense on a play that in Most offensive systems has Blocking Rules "Proprietary" to that play?

      

We have been 100% "check with me" for as long as I can remember. We call the play from the sideline, which dictates the blocking.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


ReplyQuote
CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17796
 
Posted by: @mahonz

The day that consistently happens at the Smurf Level will be the first time it ever happens. At least half of all TD's score are....accidental.  

Mike, is the "Smurf Level" 7, 8 and 9s?  If so, then I think we did that three years in a row.  Our entire approach to defense was designed to stop "The Big Play," whether that was 1) a sweep, 2) busted play or 3) some sort of creative accident.  It's why I used 2 high Safeties at an age that rarely saw the pass.  (So that offensive plays would have to get through all 3 levels of our defense in order to score.)  It's why our scheme placed the CBs way outside, so that they couldn't be "swept."  It's why our defense had a predetermined path to the backfield, so that if ball-carriers bailed out on their sweep to the right and decided to bring it back around and sweep to the left, that our defensive personnel were still there because we didn't break off our responsibility and chase across the field, but from their predetermined path.  I think the points allowed by our defense reflects this, because at that age level, the play was (and still is) all about the sweep.  We achieved shutouts in more than 50% of our games and won 100% of them because of our defensive focus on stifling the sweep, forcing offenses to stay inside and try to penetrate 3 defensive levels, and "stay home" on all plays because of the potential of the broken play, which at this age level was just as devastating as the sweep and was regarded as "The Big Play."  Our defensive umbrella sometimes resembled more of a kick-off return team because I refused to place 9 defenders in a box to stop plays that were rarely ran there.  We maintained outside leverage before the snap, so that we didn't have to chase sweeps;  we were already in place to stop sweeps.  In later years, it's why offenses couldn't spread us out, because we were already lined up with outside leverage, working towards the offense from the outside in.  This approach took away the offense's running lanes, passing routes and sight lines.

 

2000

W 19-6

W 26-0

W 42-6 

W 34-6

W 33-0

W 39-0 

W 40-0

W 27-6 Championship

 

2001

19-0

32-7

37-18

38-0

38-0

28-0

25-18

40-20 Championship

 

2002

34-0

27-0

26-12

42-6

40-6

34-0

14-0

22-Championship

 

--Dave

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


ReplyQuote
Coach Kyle
(@coach-kyle)
Platinum
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 3894
Topic starter  

@mahonz

 

Mike, 

 

The video from Mark Speckman helped a lot! This is exactly what I intend to do. That seems much simpler than what the high school was putting out there, and I think it has all the right adjustments. I probably just learned 5 years of trial and error.

 

 

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


ReplyQuote
Page 2 / 4
Share: