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CoachMikeB1970
(@coachmikeb1970)
Bronze
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 276
October 4, 2019 8:22 am  

Coaches,

I coach 10 and 11 year olds and we are having problems getting the most out of our no play call.  The reason is when we do draw them past the LOS my center wasn't taught to snap it.  This was because we are primarily a direct snap team and my fear is the backs not being ready, the line not firing off and worse case we lose the ball.  So, we have been teaching the C to snap it when he sees the foot of the DL go past the LOS.  The problem now is he will often snap it on DL movement before they cross the LOS and it leads to not firing off in unison and of course no off sides call.  My questions is, is it better to continue to rep him getting better at clearly seeing the feet past the LOS and to snap it and my O-line and backs be ready on ball movement?  Or would it be smarter to teach my O-line to react when they cross the LOS to protect themselves in hopes of getting the off sides or encroachment call?

Thank you all in advance!


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Wing-n-It
(@robert)
Platinum Moderator
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 3872
United States
October 4, 2019 8:42 am  

I think they are old enough to teach the Oline to react.

It is a tough one though

When we (rarely) went no play, we of course had "Wedge on 7"

That gives the QB an option of when to snap it.
That way if the defense never moves he can just say the word "Seven" and the ball is snapped.

I guess you could have the QB looking and when he sees Dline go across call 7 and have the snap going as they are trying to get back.

Just a thought
I had never tried it this way though.

I am glad to see your season is going well

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17073
North Carolina
High School
October 4, 2019 8:46 am  

I coach 10 and 11 year olds and we are having problems getting the most out of our no play call.  The reason is when we do draw them past the LOS my center wasn't taught to snap it.

Just take the penalty.  Not understanding the conundrum.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
Diamond
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 9353
Coach
October 4, 2019 8:47 am  

We goosed the snap, nothing says snap it like a flick of the inner thigh lol

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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CoachMikeB1970
(@coachmikeb1970)
Bronze
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 276
October 4, 2019 9:00 am  

Just take the penalty.  Not understanding the conundrum.

--Dave

Dave,

Thanks again for the reply.  Well, the problem is unless the D-line actually makes contact we never get the call.  They can be a foot past the LOS and my C wouldn't snap it, allowing the D-line the chance to get back.    So, now we have tried to teach him to snap when they cross but he gets anxious and will snap before they cross, in addition the rest of the line and backs often don't 'get off' on the snap.    I am sure like everything I do I am over thinking this but again I am seeing to many no plays not get the off sides call.  It seems my options are...

1. Don't snap it.  Until the 3rd hit and hope for contact and the call.
2. Have the C snap it and hope he gets better at recognizing them actually being across the LOS and that the rest of the team gets good get off on the snap.
3. Have the line react and protect themselves.

My confusion about #3 is how does this work?  Is this then a referee digression call?

For years as a DW team our no play was always QB wedge on the 3rd hit.  But Often once teams play us the 2nd time they are more prepared and once they do not jump I was forced to run QB wedge on No play.  This season we decided to have the ability to run several plays after no play is called.  For us a "Zero" in front of the play call means no play on that play. 


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CoachMikeB1970
(@coachmikeb1970)
Bronze
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 276
October 4, 2019 9:06 am  

We goosed the snap, nothing says snap it like a flick of the inner thigh lol

Thanks for the reply. 

Interesting, so if i understand correctly the QB would look for the off sides and if he recognized it would then goose the C to snap it.  The problem for us is we only run no play when we are in Jacks shift (direct snap) formation.  The reason is our rip motion starts on "ready" and under center the WB's may get confused and start the RIP/LIZ motion on the 1st ready.  Our cadence is "down ready hit".  No play is "down ready hit hit ready hit".

Hope that makes sense. 


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spidermac
(@spidermac)
Gold
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 2395
October 4, 2019 9:28 am  

What rules are you playing by NCAA or Fed? That could be where some of the confusion is...the penalties are administered differently...I play under NCAA rules, so what I am saying is based on those rules...I am not familiar enough with Fed rules to comment on those.

Okay...from my perspective, teaching the oline to react and protect themselves is a terrible idea...in my experience, you almost never get that call, because it is subjective...the defense is allowed to move, and the offense isn't...now I do teach them that if they are contacted by the defense and the ball has not been snapped, to react like a sniper shot them...then there is no question if the defense touched them 😛

Okay, so back to your Center and your QB...we have not started the snapping when in the neutral zone bit yet...because my boys are 8 and I don't trust them to do it right yet 🙂

but what I have done...is teach my QB that once he starts calling cadence, he has to be ready for the football...because players make mistakes, and if the ball in snapped, its time to go 🙂 additionally, we also teach our line to use their "purple" vision to watch for the snap and go on the ball...once again, if the Center makes a mistake and snaps it early, we still have to go.

All of this leads up to getting the Center to snap if the defense crosses into the neutral zone. We are going to start teaching that next season...when their brains are more fully formed.

Now, to No Play, or Freeze....we always have an underlying play if the defense does not jump...whether you are UTC or in the Gun, you can still have an underlying play...or if your boys are really good...you can have them "check with me" if the defense doesn't jump...send in the play while they are on the ball and run it...

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17073
North Carolina
High School
October 4, 2019 9:35 am  

the problem is unless the D-line actually makes contact we never get the call.  They can be a foot past the LOS and my C wouldn't snap it, allowing the D-line the chance to get back.

But even if the ball is snapped, how are you going to "get the call?" All that will happen if you snap the ball is that you will run the play.  I apologize in advance for still not understanding.

--Dave (who has never seen a referee who didn't want to use his flag at every opportunity, UNLESS he was just trying to get paid and off the field ASAP.)

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17073
North Carolina
High School
October 4, 2019 9:38 am  

We goosed the snap, nothing says snap it like a flick of the inner thigh

We're run the goose, but we run it as a QB sneak with only the Center and QB moving forward.  The rest of the offense stays frozen.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachMikeB1970
(@coachmikeb1970)
Bronze
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 276
October 4, 2019 10:55 am  

We're run the goose, but we run it as a QB sneak with only the Center and QB moving forward.  The rest of the offense stays frozen.

--Dave

Same here.  We have a "QB Silent Wedge" play.    Although I am no better off before I posted I do appreciate your time.  BTW you have been a HUGE influence on our coaching style since I started back in 2009.  Our approach to aggression that we "borrowed" from you has led us to great success in our league.  Thanks again.


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acsmith7062
(@acsmith7062)
Copper
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 74
Texas
3rd - 5th
Head Coach
October 4, 2019 12:36 pm  

I coach 9-10 year-olds and we run a true No Play.  No other play is called.  If the defense jumps and makes contact, great!  If they don't, it's check with me and we call a play from the line.  We can call all of our running plays and most of our pass plays from the line with one-three word tags and/or hand signals.

It's not that I don't think 10 year-olds can be taught to snap the ball when the defense jumps, but doesn't make contact, it just takes more practice time than I am willing to devote to it.  I would rather spend that time on other things.

Best of luck,

Chad

"You fail all the time, but you aren't a failure until you start blaming someone else."   O.A. "Bum" Phillips


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17073
North Carolina
High School
October 4, 2019 1:01 pm  

BTW you have been a HUGE influence on our coaching style since I started back in 2009.  Our approach to aggression that we "borrowed" from you has led us to great success in our league.  Thanks again.

Thank you Coach.  That’s good to hear.  I’m glad our approach has worked for others.

—Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
Diamond
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 9457
New Jersey
3rd - 5th
Asst Coach
October 4, 2019 8:21 pm  

I don't see the problem.  If you play by Federation rules or something like them, the encroachment prevents the play and you have no choice.

If you play by NCAA rules or something like them, why bother trying to "catch" the defense in the neutral zone at the snap, if it's going to be hard for you?  If you're not about to snap the ball, the player who's encroaching has to get back onside, and until he resets, your blocker has the advantage over him.  You're getting a gift from the other team without any penalty's being imposed.

Same with trying to catch the defense with 12 players.  The confusion on their team is an advantage to yours, enough so that if the officials rule that their 12th was well enough on his way to get off the field and don't penalize, you still benefit.


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coachgregory
(@coachgregory)
Platinum
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 2892
October 7, 2019 6:36 am  

Mike,

Sorry for the late response.  Because you play in Texas and we play under NCAA rules it can be a bear to get offside penalty with a goose snap.  I stopped that a long time ago.  Instead when I see an overly aggressive defense I have plays in the call sheet to account for that. 

Here is a link to the thread I recently started on things I do now...

Thoughts on Youth Double Wing

Here is a portion of that discussion:

Something else to consider, as I stated above, the wedge is like body punches in a fight....power plays are like head shots.  You need to hit the body and wear down the core of your opponent (the DLINE).  This play keeps the defensive line honest and at home... That means they are sticking their noses into the LOS and not trying to flow to power or defeat traps.  Something to consider.

At the older age levels  we segment things out as DOWN PLAYS, SET PLAYS and GO PLAYS...GO-GO PLAYS.  Now why do that?  Well that is simple but with a complex answer (at first).  It is our snap count and I want to have the bulk of our plays start on GO and I want to have a few high percentage success plays go on different points on our snap count to attack an overly aggressive defense or a slow responding/sitting on snap count defense.

At this age level we keep these plays:

BB SUPER WEDGE (no motion/shifting) - we call it DOWN BB WEDGE now...because we go on DOWN.  Bear mind our line comes to the LOS waits for the center to call DOWN...but they are set.  That is because we want to get our plays off fast and not allow the defense to set up.  Most youth defenses don't set their defense quickly.  You want to eat up your opponents time outs...  No Huddle - call play from a wrist coach/signal move to the LOS quickly and get set.  Watch panic set into the eyes of the opposing staff.  You are now dictating the tempo...which allows you to dictate the play calling...which allows you to dictate the flow of the entire game.  A defense in panic mode is a coaching staff in panic mode and a coaching staff in panic mode panics on offense and special teams...

(This is a 9 man wedge with QB booting out to the most dangers side of the defense (best DE/OLB/CB trio) to hold them in place for a moment.  The beauty of this is if the QB is being ignored by the trio - add KEEP...the rest is history...)  It is our first sound play.

Go-Go Wedge (no motion/shifting) - Again we call it Go-Go QB Wedge because it is super wedge on DOWN-SET-GO-GO.  Often we get an easy 5 yards and replay that down as the defense jumps and we either get a big wedge play or 5 yards/repeat down.  I have found I don't like to put my luck in the hands of the official so if get the call and it gives us more yards great...if it doesn't chances are we get some positive yards and our kids don't get a crazy flag for jumping because the defense drew them. It is pre-planned and packaged this way intentionally.  It is our long snap count or freeze play with us not counting on the officials to make the call.  If the defense jumps we are going on the second GO no matter what. I have found this to be more successful and we literally doubled our OFFSIDE calls against the defense because we trap the defender in the Neutral zone.  (we play by NCAA rules).

power series BB Wedge /QB Wedge.  Once you are no longer using the wedge series you need to insert a GO (normal snap count) wedge that marries up to your power series to maintain the body blows to the defense.

I don't try and goose or anything...Once we see them jumping our snap count we attack with DOWN.  We make this real simple for the kids.  We also use a SET but is simply our power play from SET (ready).  Example on our play card....  RED SHIFT SET TB (36) POWER RT.  Our kids know we build in our snap count to the playcall.   

RED SHIFT DOWN BB WEDGE
RED SHIFT SET TB POWER RT
RED SHIFT GO-GO QB WEDGE

This removes an ambiguity with the officials.  If the defense jumps we catch them we get a free 5 if they don't we get a play off often with positive yards (3+).  The nice thing about this is if we pop a big yardage play we simply decline the off sides and take the big gain. 

On a 2nd short I will often test the defense with a Go-GO Wedge...  If we get them with it I put that info away for a 3rd, 4th, or a goal line play for later.  Bear in mind once past our 30 yard line we are going for it on 4th down.  Anything under our 30 yard is made on case by case situation. 

Tempo can also help in this...If you want the defense to jump increase your tempo (add pressure)...  I think I told you this once but I will repeat it.  WE all our plays like this from the sideline: We call our formation for the next play and our kids get to the LOS right after the previous play is blown dead.  This forces the Defense to get to the LOS and it forces them to not sub.  Then we call the play and the nearby offensive player echo's it to the team.  The QB echo's it to the team.  They go DOWN. QB checks with the sideline for any hot calls (RAZZLE/uncovered pass/etc...).  (NOTE:  If we want to skip the CHECK WITH ME - we shout out RUN IT so that the QB skips it)  They run the play.  That time between the formation call and the play call the sideline controls.  The team knows as soon as we call the play they are to run it.  Any time between the FORMATION call and the PLAY call is controlled by us....meaning the coaches control the tempo.  We want to go slow we slow down the play call.  We want to go fast we speed up the play call.  We work to get the play off in under ten seconds...  More often than not we are around 10 to 13 seconds on average.

Another way we use this is when we want to eat the clock...we simply hold the play call until there is 10 seconds are so left we call the play. 

    If we want to increase the tempo  I pump my fist and tell them to hurry up.  Then we simply call the next play - the formation is the same as the last play.  The team gets the LOS and the QB echo's the play from the sideline and we go.  So now we remove the formation call and the team sets up in the same formation from the previous play.  We call the play in and the QB echo's it, checks the sideline for any hot calls and runs the play.  That shaves off about 3 to 5 seconds.  So now the play goes off in 7 to 10 seconds.  This takes time to get it right...we don't want our kids to rush it we simply want them to speed up a little to get the defense off guard. 

This can help with off sides.  Think about this from the defensive perspective...they have to get their call and any coaching adjustments from their sideline while having to move to the LOS and get ready for the play. Their attention is no longer 100% on either us or their coach....  That means the likelihood of a mistake happening on the defense is high...missing a call, jumping off sides, not being ready....  So when you speed up the tempo and go to a DOWN, READY, or GO-GO you can get a defender to jump the snap count.

The benefit of all this is you can vary the tempo up without ever changing how you call the play...but for the defense it makes life hard as they have to get up and get to the LOS and focus on our team. 

Jack

Exsisto Fortis, Exsisto Validus


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COACH JC
(@winged)
Diamond
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 6999
October 7, 2019 12:45 pm  

You can never trust youth refs. Especially at the young ages. On freeze we don’t move an inch no matter what.

It's all about having fun.  But losing aint fun!


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