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rrsontag
(@rrsontag)
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July 29, 2020 11:57 pm  

So practice starts Monday, and we’ve lost our QB, FB, RB1, and RB2 from last year. WB moved, FB moved, RB1 went full time basketball, and RB2 went to a different team. Needless to say we have some holes to fill. In the past we’ve ran I/power-I and built everything around running power (really suited our RB1). The good news is we have our entire starting line, and they are solid. Guards are experienced pullers. The bad news is no one on our team has any meaningful carries. Heading into the 6th grade we have 20 kids 9 are new to the team and if those 6 have never played before. 

Anyway looking for input on what you guys would consider running. Really just brainstorming. I’m sure some of the new kids will be decent athletes, but from what I’ve seen none have great speed. 

Thanks,

Ronnie


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
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Virginia
Middle School
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July 30, 2020 5:15 am  

I run Single Wing so I don’t have to worry about personnel.  It’s the most forgiving offense in regard to personnel.  I  can play my fastest linemen at QB/TB and be fine.

 

If I have a “QB” who is good at throwing, ball handling and managing the offense, the offense is extremely flexible to use that player in a traditional roll also.

 

The years I have had a good WR/QB combo, I have thrown the ball more.  The few years where I had solid talent and depth all over, we did whatever we wanted (pass, run, tempo).

 

I evaluate my team at the start of each season and systematically place my players.  The Single Wing has always worked.  Like any system, it is more explosive with more talent, but it will work with almost any make up of personnel.


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Coyote
(@coyote)
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July 30, 2020 9:06 am  
Posted by: @rrsontag

The good news is we have our entire starting line, and they are solid. Guards are experienced pullers.

Hi Coach,

In my opinion, your good news is better than your bad news is bad.   

When I was coaching H.S. ball, twice (different schools, years apart) the Varsity held an intra-squad scrimmage.  Both times it was decided to put the 1st string Oline with the 2nd string Backs, and the 2nd string Oline with the 1st string Backs.  Both times the 1st OL w/ 2nd string backs dominated.   

Either run what you know best, or what you have resources to learn quickly.   We can't teach what we don't know, but there's a ton of material available out there on Wing-T (My preference), Single wing and other offenses that are RB friendly.   if you have pulling G's you believe in, you're half way there (again, my opinion), we build our Offense around our G's.  There are some good resources available from some of the coaches here. 

My experience in the I is it is not very effective w/out good I-back, and blocking FB. So, consider that if you don't have a play-maker to put in the I, or that 25 carries a game grinder coming in, or some kids you can rotate effectively, might want to look at something else.

Do you have access to the H.School staff, you may find help there.   A few weeks ago I got a hold of the H.S. Head coach, asked if I could pick his brain and he was very happy to share, we have a very positive morning, going over form and technique stuff.  You may find a willing and enthusiastic resource there. 

Good luck

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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rrsontag
(@rrsontag)
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July 30, 2020 5:17 pm  

Well unfortunately the local high school staff isn’t very accessible. I know over the years several coaches in our organization including myself have reached out to no avail. 

I’ve got a lot of faith in our guards, and really our line as a whole. We talked about Wing-T, Double Wing, and Single Wing. But just don’t know which way to go. I’ve been told DW is better for smaller lines, and the SW or WT would be more suited for our team. 

As I research throughout the day I find myself leaning towards the Wing-T. I see at one point you could request a PowerPoint from DC for like $60. Is that still an option? Or does anyone have any suggestions on where to start? Google search brings up endless options, so thought I’d ask for direction from someone with experience. 

This post was modified 3 months ago by rrsontag

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32wedge
(@32wedge)
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Virginia
Middle School
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July 30, 2020 5:37 pm  

@rrsontag

 

the DC Wing-T manual is a free download here:

https://football.dumcoach.com/community/dc-wing-t-offense/

I have read the book and have coached against it once, but never installed it.  After the game I coached against, I made a comment to the other coach about how cool it was to see the DC Wing-T.  He was floored that I recognized it and was a little upset that he had just lost.

 


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Seth54
(@seth54)
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July 30, 2020 8:34 pm  

I'll echo that you should stick to what you can teach comfortably. I'd probably take my most athletic OL and make him FB, and if you don't have a WB who can run, I'd consider another OL there if you stick with the Power I. Regardless of system, you'll have to find a runner with a little juice or the offense will be sluggish. No way around that


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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July 30, 2020 8:54 pm  
Posted by: @rrsontag

I’ve got a lot of faith in our guards, and really our line as a whole. We talked about Wing-T, Double Wing, and Single Wing. But just don’t know which way to go. I’ve been told DW is better for smaller lines, and the SW or WT would be more suited for our team.

Is the situation that you just see that either SW or WT might be suitable?  Or is it that you like both of them so much you can't decide?

Because if it's the latter situation, you can combine them by running sidesaddle T, or spin T like Sigourney-Keota (MO) HS at the turn of the century -- and despite the name of the latter, you don't even have to install spin series.


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rrsontag
(@rrsontag)
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July 30, 2020 10:39 pm  

So I think I/we feel like the SW or Wing-T might be suitable. 

We have weight limits, so moving our best OL player to FB isn’t an option.

I’ve almost exclusively coached the I/power-I running power, counter, power pass, iso, toss, trap... the typical I-Form plays I guess. I haven’t coached wing-t or SW but there’s enough material on both that I believe we would be fine. 

There was a camp tonight and The new kids looked like new kids that have never played. So no matter what there will be growing pains. I mean these kids have never taken a handoff....

I guess really the questions are, is one of these offense or any others going to be more new skill player friendly than the others? Which makes the best use of our line? Or does it matter? 

This post was modified 3 months ago by rrsontag

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terrypjohnson
(@terrypjohnson)
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July 31, 2020 12:23 am  

@rrsontag I find myself in this situation every year because I coach 8U. Last season, 75% of the team had never played anything other than flag. And my FB from the year before was way over the weight limit, so he became a pulling guard (and my wife never let me hear the end of it!)

I ran Single Wing at my age group the past two seasons with a lot of success. I ran mostly Power, Sweep, and Counter with SAB blocking, pulling at least one guard on every play. Since it sounds like you've got an awesome offensive line, I would add Wedge to the list (I couldn't because my league has silly rules about running the "A" Gap).

What I really like about this approach is that it keeps things simple. For example, my wing backs had to focus mostly on down blocking, running sweeps, and catching passes. With only three things to learn, I was able to drill them on these things over and over and over again. Similarly, the fullbacks had to worry mostly about kick out blocks, leading the sweep, and catching the middle screen (since I couldn't wedge). I was able to rep them time and again. Once the QB/TB's learned the hole numbers, they could work on finding the holes and reading blocks.

This is what has worked for me and my teams, which are a lot younger than the groups you're working with. However, I'd definitely stick with what you feel most comfortable teaching.

Best of luck this season!!

Coach Terry

P.S. - If you want a great resource on the "nuts and bolts" on the Single Wing, be sure to check out @32wedge 's presentation in the Single Wing Forum. I learned a heck of a lot from it!

https://football.dumcoach.com/community/single-wing-football/nuts-and-bolts-of-the-single-wing-offense/

 

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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North Carolina
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July 31, 2020 7:30 am  
Posted by: @32wedge

I run Single Wing so I don’t have to worry about personnel.

I think if you really know your scheme, the fundamentals and drills associated with that scheme and how to teach them, you don't have to worry about personnel.  There's a reason Joe has good quarterbacks year in and year out.  There's a reason some coaches have good RBs year-in and year-out, regardless of their player's experience.

Nathan, you can say your scheme isn't personnel-dependent, but the fact is you know how to teach the scheme, how to get the most from it and what adjustments to make when your talent dips.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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North Carolina
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July 31, 2020 8:12 am  
Posted by: @rrsontag

Needless to say we have some holes to fill.

--That's pretty much every team, every year for every coach.

The good news is we have our entire starting line, and they are solid. Guards are experienced pullers.

--If you have a quality, veteran offensive line, then the least of your worries should be the running game.  That being said, at the youth level where so many coaches regard the offensive line (scheme/fundies/drills and time) as an afterthought, where they simply rely on their show-pony being able to create on his own, or get outside, then a lack of talent or experience would be a concern there.

The bad news is no one on our team has any meaningful carries.

--How is this a problem?  I assume you know how to evaluate, what drills to teach, and how to get players up to speed.  If not, then you do have a problem because you're simply talent-dependent on your team's success.

Heading into the 6th grade we have 20 kids 9 are new to the team and if those 6 have never played before. 

--Irrelevant.  There's nothing that you're teaching that is impossible for them to do.  You're not teaching them how to fly, or to become invisible.  You're teaching them to play a position.  If you're really good at what you do, you can teach them to form run (consistently), which will take a minimum of 1/10th off their 40 time. That could very well be the difference between a touchdown and getting tackled.  Add the myriad of other important aspects of being a successful RB and it shouldn't matter who you have back there.

--I coach RBs.  I couldn't care less what their skill set is.  Their inherent particular skill set only tells me what we may want to feature.  I only care that they want to play the position.  If they do, we've got more than enough material to teach them everything they need to know to be successful.  This year, I'll be coaching a Sr. who's never carried the ball before.  I'll also be coaching kids coming in from the middle school who've never carried a football.  Doesn't matter to me.

Anyway looking for input on what you guys would consider running. Really just brainstorming. I’m sure some of the new kids will be decent athletes, but from what I’ve seen none have great speed. 

--Talent shouldn't dictate what scheme you run.  Talent should dictate what you feature within your particular scheme.  I'm a Double Wing guy.  But if I get a player who has only been a Spread Shotgun QB, we're still running the Double Wing.  If my offensive linemen are outmanned in size and strength, then we'd change our blocking scheme from G/O/D to angle blocking.  An entirely different offensive scheme takes too long to learn, teach and figure out what your bullet points are and how to make adjustments.  Would you rather play against a coach who has run his scheme successfully for a year or a decade?  A coach who's run Triple Option for years, or the guy who ran Under Center Wing-T three years ago, Double Wing two years ago, Run and Shoot last year and now the Option?  The old saying about "jack of all trades, master of none" applies to coaches, as well.

--Dave

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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North Carolina
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July 31, 2020 8:34 am  
Posted by: @rrsontag

Well unfortunately the local high school staff isn’t very accessible. I know over the years several coaches in our organization including myself have reached out to no avail. 

--There are high school coaches on this forum.  Some are real jerks, though.

I’ve been told DW is better for smaller lines, and the SW or WT would be more suited for our team. 

--Why is that?  I'm a DW guy.  I'd be more than happy to have a big offensive line.  But successful o-line play isn't about size; it's far more about leverage.

As I research throughout the day I find myself leaning towards the Wing-T. I see at one point you could request a PowerPoint from DC for like $60. Is that still an option?

--Clark's got a ton of stuff.  And the guy is brilliant.  And he's accessible.  But Clark's put his 120 years of knowledge and experience into his materials, so it may be quicker to read "War and Peace."

Or does anyone have any suggestions on where to start? Google search brings up endless options, so thought I’d ask for direction from someone with experience. 

--If you've run the I with success, I wouldn't deviate.  It's always easiest to add wrinkles to something you're already familiar with and know that you can get quickly up to speed.  Here's what I don't like about starting over from scratch with a new offense:  I've run the DW for more than a decade at the youth, middle and high school level.  I've attended DW clinics around the country and have traded info with many, MANY, Double Wing coaches.  I have hosted Double Wing clinics here in North Carolina and given them around the U.S.  That all being said, whenever I listen to a veteran DW coach give a clinic, it's inevitable that he'll give me some gold-nugget information that's new to me; despite the fact that I've studied the scheme for more than two decades.  How many nuggets will you have with something that's brand-new to you?  And will you even recognize what those nuggets are?  Add to that, it's far easier for me to assimilate the brand-new nugget because I already know the scheme like the back of my hand.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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North Carolina
High School
July 31, 2020 8:45 am  
Posted by: @bob-goodman

you can combine them by running sidesaddle T, or spin T like Sigourney-Keota (MO) HS at the turn of the century

Which century, Bob?

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
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Virginia
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July 31, 2020 8:49 am  
Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @32wedge

I run Single Wing so I don’t have to worry about personnel.

I think if you really know your scheme, the fundamentals and drills associated with that scheme and how to teach them, you don't have to worry about personnel.  There's a reason Joe has good quarterbacks year in and year out.  There's a reason some coaches have good RBs year-in and year-out, regardless of their player's experience.

I couldn't agree more.

Nathan, you can say your scheme isn't personnel-dependent, but the fact is you know how to teach the scheme, how to get the most from it and what adjustments to make when your talent dips.

I have said for a long time and am completely convinced that the Single Wing is the most forgiving in regard to talent level, specifically skill position talent.   The offense was created before the rule allowing substitution of specialized offensive or defensive players.  Players played both ways because that was the rule.  The system is made to plug and chug whatever you have available and is inherently simple in design.

Other offenses have their own advantages such as the base Double Wing is perfectly balanced to each side assuming you have equal talent on both sides.  The spread teams allow you to stretch out a defense and exploit one on one talent mismatches assuming you have a talent advantage somewhere.  The Single Wing's advantage is it's flexibility.

 

--Dave

 


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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July 31, 2020 8:52 am  
Posted by: @rrsontag

So I think I/we feel like the SW or Wing-T might be suitable. 

--Based on?

I’ve almost exclusively coached the I/power-I running power, counter, power pass, iso, toss, trap... the typical I-Form plays I guess.

--The Double Wing can be run from the I.

There was a camp tonight and The new kids looked like new kids that have never played. So no matter what there will be growing pains. I mean these kids have never taken a handoff....

--You really need to quit going back to that.  Inexperience is a given and shouldn't be a concern.  You're either a good teacher, or you aren't.

I guess really the questions are, is one of these offense or any others going to be more new skill player friendly than the others?

--It's not whether a particular scheme is more "player-friendly."  It's about whether the coach teaching it is player-friendly.  I've spent many years in the classroom.  Some teachers can take simple points and make them seem complex.  Other teachers can take complex points and make them not only seem simple, but easy.  Which teacher are you?

Which makes the best use of our line? Or does it matter? 

--I have no idea what this means(?)  I don't know of an offensive scheme that relies more or less on a good offensive line.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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