Posted by: @gumby_in_co

Posted by: @mahonz

Caleb has cement in his shoes

 

You are right on that point, so it doesn't make any sense for him to be our #1 option. I made a change and it dovetails with everything else we're doing. 

So no one wants to talk about how modern read option can't hold old school option's jock?

Im not proficient enough to compare with either concept. All I know is 2022 Oklahoma and 1982 Oklahoma had one thing in common. They ran one Offense and they ran it very well. You really want to run some option. So do it out of the DW. You mentioned you want to throw the ball a little. We both know Caleb can do that. Thing is the DW formation does not lend itself well to passing. That's why the 82 Sooners completed 47 passes for about 700 yards running wishbone and the 22 Sooners completed 250 passes for about 3300 yards running read option spread. 

Nothing wrong with changing formations to pass the football. We've been doing that for years. Changing QB's to pass is what sucks. But you want to run the football some from spread. I dont believe read option is the answer because of Cales inability to win the battle with his feet. It kinda blew my mind how bad he was running footballs last season. But as long as he isnt throwing the football from a formation that was continually put together with bailing wire from the get go....you have success IMHO. I would not waste one minute running read anything from spread. Too reliant on Calbes brain first ....feet second. Running Follows at least he has blockers and LB'rs actually attacking Dive first out of a formation that wont allow the Defense to load the box because Caleb will prove right away if you call it....he is a serious threat with his arm.

Plus you have Dre, River and Slade catching these balls. I cant even begin to describe what it means to have 3 viable receiving threats. That usually takes years to develop. You have it right at your fingertips....almost accidentally. Live there when in spread with a tiny little sprinkle of run plays. The polar opposite of what will happen in your ridiculously well designed DW where option can be installed as a counter play. 👍

Plus Beast and Spread is a great formation to park a few MP's still finding their way. The DW is not. So now bully up your bread and butter and lets grind these Opponents into the turf.  😎 We both know that can happen even with Caleb's cement feet. In the DW he needs 3-4 right now steps in traffic for success. In Spread he needs 6-8 steps in space. Sounds reasonable until we watch him hesitate and take the wrong path. For whatever reason his vision when it comes to running the football is....well...laughable.

Can you coach that out of him? Probably. My take is why bother? Spend that time on pocket presence which he lacks only because we could not protect him last year. Give that kid 2-3 seconds with confidence and he WILL DESTROY the opponent with his arm. 

Finally, I know you dont like them but he needs a hard rib protector. That will jump start the confidence day one. 

Posted by: @gumby_in_co

So no one wants to talk about how modern read option can't hold old school option's jock?

No.

--Dave

Posted by: @coachdp

Posted by: @gumby_in_co

So no one wants to talk about how modern read option can't hold old school option's jock?

No.

--Dave

🤣 🤣 🤣 

Posted by: @mahonz

You really want to run some option.

"Really" is too strong a word.

So do it out of the DW.

meh

Nothing wrong with changing formations to pass the football. We've been doing that for years.

That's what "Gun" is for.

I dont believe read option is the answer because of Cales inability to win the battle with his feet. It kinda blew my mind how bad he was running footballs last season. But as long as he isnt throwing the football from a formation that was continually put together with bailing wire from the get go....you have success IMHO. I would not waste one minute running read anything from spread. Too reliant on Calbes brain first ....feet second. Running Follows at least he has blockers and LB'rs actually attacking Dive first out of a formation that wont allow the Defense to load the box because Caleb will prove right away if you call it....he is a serious threat with his arm.

Fixed it. Simple, elegant and dovetails with what we are already doing with the slide protection/play action. You'll love it. Caleb on the keep will be called ONLY when we see those natural bubbles. Teaching him to make a read and run the BB stretch as option will be a natural progression. If we never get there, no big deal because we will have both plays and it will look like option, even if it's not.

Live there when in spread with a tiny little sprinkle of run plays. 

That's the idea. But you know I like to prime the pump with a run play to get the 2nd level running in the wrong direction. Running play in Gun is only there to set up the pass. All this may be moot because it's Todd's show. I make that clear to him every time I send him an updated playbook (on version 4 so far). The only thing I'm sticking to is DW and that's because I have a specific vision for that. He has blank slate for Beast and Gun.

Finally, I know you dont like them but he needs a hard rib protector. That will jump start the confidence day one. 

Ugh. Next thing you know, we'll be passing out hand warmers before cold games and letting them sit on mommy's lap.

Nobody wants to talk option football, so y'all can kick rocks. 😉 

 

The "read" of the Tebow era has become the RPO of this era. They block most of the front for the run and depend on the pass for the option.  This is more effective in my opinion as the secondary is forced to make a decision not the front. So it's evolved and it's a menace.  Defending RpO is a difficult task even with the most basic of offensive concepts. 

Posted by: @bucksweep58

The "read" of the Tebow era has become the RPO of this era. They block most of the front for the run and depend on the pass for the option.  This is more effective in my opinion as the secondary is forced to make a decision not the front. So it's evolved and it's a menace.  Defending RpO is a difficult task even with the most basic of offensive concepts. 

Thanks Zach. So what you're saying is that in evaluating "Modern Spread Option", I have not considered RPO?  I accept that. 

Mahonz asked if our triple O install was worth it. We worked really hard mak8ng time to get it in this past season. Our goal was 500 practice reps and we got really close to that. I literally count the reps at practice. No, it didn't set the world on fire but I did see a lot of potential on video. There were plays where the right read would have scored against the best opponents. We just need more reps to build confidence and instincts. The goal was to introduce it, then refine it in year 2. We're being methodical and we don't want to throw away our old standards which have produced consistent results year after year with different teams.

As far as spread option goes, my experience in HS is that 80% of coaches describe what they do as "spread rpo" but most of them simply cannot sustain drives with their passing game. Their offenses turn into what I call "grab bag". 

It's usually rubbish.

I appreciate the Air Raid, conceptually, but so many HS coaches just can't execute it. They are usually younger guys who think all the answers are to be found in their magic playbook they discovered at a Glazier clinic. It's almost like the vast majority of HS coaches are affected by lack of imagination, exposure to different systems, groupthink, gullibility to sales pitches, and/or herd mentality. They simply can't adopt a more reliable system because of the cognitive dissonance that being contrarian introduces into their younger, maleable brains.

I'm almost 53... old, I guess. I'm unswayable and unimpressed by fads and playbooks. I've always been obstinate enough to do my own thing and give the middle finger to the system that has beat all the creativity out of this sport.

Football awards no style points. Triple option has been dead for 20 years, and that's exactly why I am so intrigued at the thought of incorporating it into our SW.

Be contrarian!

Most "spread rpo" offenses I see in HS are just flat out rubbish. The coach struts around with his visor pulled down and his magic play sheet and 3 minutes into the game the only plays that produce any results are 1) zone run and 2) broken play qb scramble.

All the while, these "masterminds" mock and dismiss "mundane" and "archaic" systems like Veer, SW, DW and Beast.

I just roll my eyes, anymore.

Posted by: @gumby_in_co

Ugh. Next thing you know, we'll be passing out hand warmers before cold games and letting them sit on mommy's lap.

 

Hand warmers won us a Carnation Bowl in a wet freezing cold blizzard...tough guy. 🤣  

Posted by: @troy

Mahonz asked if our triple O install was worth it. We worked really hard mak8ng time to get it in this past season. Our goal was 500 practice reps and we got really close to that. I literally count the reps at practice.

 

Im thinking how utterly scary your Offense would have been in the playoffs if you took those 500 reps and applied them to your passing game. 😲 You can already run the football VERY well....seems time for some Chuck n Duck. 

Thing is with a decent passing game at the youth level...your opponents dont give coverage all that much attention. That will forever be true. Now if I could just convince my 3 yards and a cloud of dust Fearless Leader of this....he has the tools on this Roster right there in front of him to be great. Just cant see it to fully commit. Forget his QB....that's an easy tell....kid is accurate....its his receivers and protections. They got the goods but they get the Coach Lar doesn't know what to do with. 

Lar is going back to his roots. He will coach the OL. That is his wheel house and he is VERY good at it. His DW will shine. Im sure of this. 

Being a good passing team at the youth level is about as contrarian as it gets. 

About 25 years ago when I was coaching in Phoenix I was blessed with a VERY talented team. 8th grade season...I love to pass the football so I decided one game to commit to pass the football every down. QB scrambles were our only running plays. It was the last game of the season. Our seeding for the playoffs was set regardless. Our opponent had to win to get in. This was back before youth football took the CTE hit so it took 5 wins to get in due to numbers. 

We won 60 something to 6. We scored every TD. 😆 

Fast forward 5 years and Im back in Denver. Same deal. 7th graders. Last game of the season and we are in but our opponent had to win to get into the playoffs. They had a GREAT run defense. The weather was terrible. We lead at the half 6-0 running the football. My Son the HC told me at halftime...I was the OC... to unleash hell. So in the second half we passed the football every down and scored 30 points. 

We won the Carnation Bowl that year passing the football. We played our Arch Rival who completely shut down our running game. 

Thing is its not as QB reliant as one might think. Its receiver reliant and FULLY understanding slide protections. It took me years to finally understand this. Plus...much like your option thoery....you need to work on this for multiple years with the same team. It doesn't just happen. 

Last year Lar dabbled....and it didn't work mainly due to player commitment. Its requires a full on commitment by all which is doable running "two" Offenses. 👍 

Wish I could have seen it. In 145 games  coached, I have never seen any youth team move the ball reliably by passing. That being said, we do throw about 6 times per game. It's all quick game, slants, screens, and or short side corner so we have it in. We threw 14 times for 90 yards against BF. I just want another running game tool. 

Sorry, more philosophical musings...

I think a lot of younger coaches reduce the purpose of offense to "scoring". Right or wrong, I don't see it that way. I see offense as a process that harmonizes with the defense to control field position and possession. I see SCORING as the outcome of that COMBINED process. The goal of spread rpo is to use the quick game as a surrogate for the running game. It is intended to move the ball reliably and control possession. So many know-it-alls, high off their recent Glazier clinic, install the magic Air Raid offense, then expect it to open up the home run passing game. Much to their dismay, their O becomes a farce of 3 and outs, picks, and they give their opponent a short field that yields them easy scores. Then they blame their players for it not working.

I have studied the Air Raid. I get it. I like it. It's just not me. I think most coaches who run it don't fully grasp it's purpose. They don't spend sufficient time on the screen game. They don't dedicate resources to OL (it's very hard to pass block). The don't understand fundamentally how it gets kids open with screening, rubs, conflict and choice routes and so it doesn't work unless they have a ringer at QB who can break the design and run. It's not just a bunch of Xs and Os. There are very intricate fundamentals involved and that gets ignored.

Mike Leach described the wishbone as one of the greatest offenses ever devised. He morphed the wishbone option concept into a brilliant RPO system. We run NZONE very well at EHS. Our HC is a guru. But he also started off as a DW guy and so he has a depth of coaching understanding. BUT EHS is the exception, not the rule.

Posted by: @troy

Wish I could have seen it. In 145 games  coached, I have never seen any youth team move the ball reliably by passing. That being said, we do throw about 6 times per game. It's all quick game, slants, screens, and or short side corner so we have it in. We threw 14 times for 90 yards against BF. I just want another running game tool. 

Never happens at the younger levels for sure. Its something that has to be built for a few seasons minimum and I agree its rare. Never got anything really going with the Outlaws 2.0 due to the lack of any semblance of a QB....until Lar picked up his current QB 2 seasons ago. 

The Outlaws 1.0 played in 3 Carnation Bowls....losing once. That loss we were forced into passing the football. Our opponent was a very familiar opponent and shut our running game down cold.  They scored with 2.8 seconds left on the clock for the W. We passed the football maybe 20 times. Had we given up running the football earlier and thrown 30 times we win. This team was not quite ready for a pure passing performance but they sure gave it a go that day. 

I think they were 6th graders. Some examples. TEMPO is key. 

Posted by: @gumby_in_co

So this year, I am looking at Read Option.  I watched a HS teaching it in a clinic and I've watched a lot of Youtube videos, mainly focusing on 1st level reads. Most of what I found gets away from the idea of attacking a single defender with 2 outcomes. In a typical Read Option play using zone right, your HB will be on the left and will attack the right side (sometimes dive/inside, sometimes sweep or anything in between). QB is reading the back side (offensive left) EMLOS and typically watching his hips. If the hips are vertical, give the ball. If they are facing the sideline, keep the ball. You are giving the DE 2 options: Do your job or don't do your job (which I consider a mistake). I don't like this for 2 reasons: 1) I don't like a play design that depends on a defender making a mistake 2) If the DE does his job and you give the ball to the HB, then there is nothing special about that "give" option. You're simply running a dive, sweep, or anything in between.

My answer to this is to attack the left DE with my HB (same scenario as above, but HB lines up on the left and is going to left OT). QB's read is to keep the ball on a sweep unless the DE comes upfield. This puts the DE in conflict and since he's the key defender for off tackle and for sweep, we have success as long as we make the right decision (in theory).

What I want to know is "what happened"?  Did Read Option forget about one of the most successful offensive concepts in the history of football? Am I missing something?

I've been reading this whole thread and can hardly believe both the question and answer are this simple: Read Option didn't forget anything, it's just based on a different principle.  If the handoff runner just follows a normal hole, there is no reason for the DE to even crash, he's not making that tackle regardless, so he should always box and therefore there'd be nothing to read, the handoff would always be in order.  What this type of option must be based on is a runner who slows down and looks for a hole that may develop in more than one place.  It's taking away that runner's time to do that that's the only incentive for the DE to not play the keep.  Therefore the reason for the keep option is to give the handoff runner time.

If you design the handoff to hit at a particular hole that opens because a certain defender isn't there, then you have no business running that type of option.  You're used to the type of option where a DL has a decent chance to make a tackle inside or outside of him, but he doesn't know in time which one has the ball.

Posted by: @bob-goodman

Posted by: @gumby_in_co

So this year, I am looking at Read Option.  I watched a HS teaching it in a clinic and I've watched a lot of Youtube videos, mainly focusing on 1st level reads. Most of what I found gets away from the idea of attacking a single defender with 2 outcomes. In a typical Read Option play using zone right, your HB will be on the left and will attack the right side (sometimes dive/inside, sometimes sweep or anything in between). QB is reading the back side (offensive left) EMLOS and typically watching his hips. If the hips are vertical, give the ball. If they are facing the sideline, keep the ball. You are giving the DE 2 options: Do your job or don't do your job (which I consider a mistake). I don't like this for 2 reasons: 1) I don't like a play design that depends on a defender making a mistake 2) If the DE does his job and you give the ball to the HB, then there is nothing special about that "give" option. You're simply running a dive, sweep, or anything in between.

My answer to this is to attack the left DE with my HB (same scenario as above, but HB lines up on the left and is going to left OT). QB's read is to keep the ball on a sweep unless the DE comes upfield. This puts the DE in conflict and since he's the key defender for off tackle and for sweep, we have success as long as we make the right decision (in theory).

What I want to know is "what happened"?  Did Read Option forget about one of the most successful offensive concepts in the history of football? Am I missing something?

I've been reading this whole thread and can hardly believe both the question and answer are this simple: Read Option didn't forget anything, it's just based on a different principle.  If the handoff runner just follows a normal hole, there is no reason for the DE to even crash, he's not making that tackle regardless, so he should always box and therefore there'd be nothing to read, the handoff would always be in order.  What this type of option must be based on is a runner who slows down and looks for a hole that may develop in more than one place.  It's taking away that runner's time to do that that's the only incentive for the DE to not play the keep.  Therefore the reason for the keep option is to give the handoff runner time.

Thanks for the response, Bob. What you said makes sense on a stretch play, but not a dive. 

If you design the handoff to hit at a particular hole that opens because a certain defender isn't there, then you have no business running that type of option. 

Different subject and not part of our option. We just like to be ready when a defense gives us an obvious bubble. We call it from the sideline when we see it.  If our C is smart enough, we may give him the authority to call it, but that's not necessary.

You're used to the type of option where a DL has a decent chance to make a tackle inside or outside of him, but he doesn't know in time which one has the ball.

Yeah. That's become apparent to me. I suppose the problem is that I stopped paying attention to Zone Read Option back when everyone was talking about it. Mainly because I hate(d) it. I see it run poorly so often at the HS level, I never saw a benefit to it. What's also becoming apparent to me is that I simply don't understand Zone Read Option as it's currently being run, which is just fine.