Greetings Coaches
Perhaps because we came up short in the championship, I’m much further down the road on off-season eval than I normally am at this point. We over-achieved to put together an unbeaten reg. season (8-0) and make the championship game, only to come up short. I’m pleased with the season over-all, very proud of our kids, but lack satisfaction. Other teams had stronger rosters and we were supposed to be an also-ran. And now, we draft last again, but don’t have the title to show for it.
Seems this up-coming draft, the talent level is down, and all the other teams have most of their key players returning.
Returners Offensively:
OLINE: Our C was pretty descent, and is coming back. If the normal progression we see from 1st yr to 2nd yr holds up, he should be very solid, and he can shot-gun snap well. The rest of our Oline is moving up. [Perhaps the best OL I’ve coached in the 9 yrs I’ve been with this team]
RBs: A middlin’ fair WB returns. Tiny, but fierce, and decent reciever. His younger Bro. (automatically comes to us), is slightly bigger and faster and was a solid kid in 7U.
Receivers: We return 2 very good receivers, one has the most natural hands I’ve seen at this level. Both are willing blockers.
QB: Our Back-up QB is coming back and is accurate short to medium rnge, but lack a deep arm. Worse, he is slow of foot. He constantly got plowed over by our pulling G’s in practice.
We need to draft an Oline. We should be able to add a play-maker with our 1st pick, but not counting on it, those kids are going to be scarce in this draft.
So, I;m looking at the Pistol Wing T. Gets the QB out of the OG's way and should allow for a little quicker passing attack.
I’ve read the articles here on DumCoach, and Rick Stewert’s stuff on the net. Also looking at Kenny Simpson’s Gun T material.
We’ve been very successful as a Buck and Belly team, esp Buckshort and Belly weak. We want to keep those plays. We can run ‘em in Pistol, but I’m looking at the Gun T passing game, and the 2 wide receivers and it appears to be a good fit for the returning kids. But then we lose Belly weak, our QB is just not the kid to carry the ball in that kind of iso play.
So, anyone currently running either of these two systems, or have extensive experience in them?
Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?
Don't have an opinion yet, but am following this thread. My oldest son's team got *destroyed* by a team that ran the Wing-T to perfection (they even opened up the way Coach Goodman suggested!).
FWIW, the coaches on Facebook have a lot of good things to say about Kenny Simpson's Gun T. Supposedly, you can run it at any level, so I'll probably purchase some materials on it myself.
Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer
Don't have an opinion yet, but am following this thread. My oldest son's team got *destroyed* by a team that ran the Wing-T to perfection (they even opened up the way Coach Goodman suggested!).
Sorry to have to ask, but...what way was that? I don't remember the discussion.
I have considerable experience with wing T, and now with teams that have added shotgun packages. This season we've gone to shotgun for most of our passing because our passer needed to duck the rush, protection was so bad. We kept belly, sweep, and waggle in the gun; we tried a counter, but it wasn't a good fit in gun. We added 2X2 and trips.
As to Coyote's problem, the only major reason I see for switching to pistol would be that QB-G collision problem. If he can just position the QB barely far enough back to be out of the puller's way, then it may be possible to preserve the rest of the wing T timing. I don't see why he's so keen on the gun T passing game unless he has a chance to draft a better passer.
Coyote, do you think you could coach up another ballhandler as QB, and have most of the passing from another position, such as HB or FB? For instance, snap thru the QB's legs to a FB who's a good passer, and you have a "hidden" shotgun package with a blocking back to help protection inside.
Alternatively, you can minimize the problem of G-QB collisions by playing guard over, ends trade. Meaning the line is unbalanced, split end to the strong side, TE weak. If Buckshort has been so good for you, it should be easy enough if the guard doesn't have to pull past center, and pulling only either the inside guard or the uncovered one. Belly is still there on the weak side. It doesn't seem it'd be worthwhile to have both buckshort and a guard trap on the same side. From unbalanced, I'd substitute a base-blocked FB dive for the trap.
For me....the Wing T is one of the best systems that promotes the Unity of Apparent Intent meaning deception thru meshing.
All of that is pretty much lost once you go shotgun. Yes shotgun is easier on the young QB's for passing because he never has to turn his back on the Defense but play action is deadly. I don't consider "flashing" play action.
We ran the Gun T one season. It was OK. I felt deception was lost. One good fake is worth two good blocks will forever be true.
We also ran Pistol Wing T one season. I was not a fan. Its like you cant decide if you want to be under center or in gun so you go halfway in-between. Plus your snaps have to be perfect because there is no opportunity for the QB to adjust. Its a right now kind of thing. I never understood the value of Pistol anything.
But....it seems to be the thing now a day so there has to be some positives. A multi position meshing backfield from under center is brutal to defend. Im not convinced you can improve that by going Pistol of Gun.
My take.
Oh...and congrats on your season. 👍
What is beautiful, lives forever.
The 2 things I think contribute the most to our success over the past 9 yrs ... [since joining the team, we're 73 - 19; 8x in championship game, 5x champs; and since 2017, we're 9-3 in non-league games]
1) we run off-tackle
2) we find what the kids do best and let them do it, a lot.
rating the returners, our strength is the 2 receivers coming back. No one will ever be talking about "air coyote", but we play to the kids' strengths. Hence the interest in boosting our passing game. During practice, our QB has shown the arm talent to be good in the short to intermediate passes. Some time back we picked up a couple patterns from Smyth's Double Slot offense and he does well with those. [We drafted him to be our QB, but our returning WB asked to try QB and beat him out]
Most years a good athlete shows up who didn't play the year before (or not in our league anyway), in the upcoming draft RB talent depth is not there, so we're working on the worst case scenario of using the returning WB and his upcoming brother. [Actually, worst case, the kids don't play, but we're optimistic in our pessimism] In which case, our RBs will be serviceable, but need a really good OLine. Speaking of which, we have only 1 returning OLineman. Gotta draft an entire line.
Its due diligence time. Is there a better way to make use of the strengths and minimize the weaknesses, to meet the challenges & opportunities ahead? If there is, I want to find it without sacrificing what has worked well for us. Unless something dramatic happens, we'll always be a Buck and Belly offense. But for now, its time to turn over some rocks and see if can improve what we do for the kids we have coming back.
Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?
I just noticed this bit...
So, I'm looking at the Pistol Wing T. Gets the QB out of the OG's way and should allow for a little quicker passing attack.
I don't see how that gets you any quicker passing...unless you're comparing it to shotgun. There is no quicker pass in any formation than taking the snap, cranking up, and firing...and the fastest way to do that is with a hand-to-hand snap, whether straight on or sidesaddle.
If you're thinking 2- or 3-step drop, pistol doesn't make that any quicker, because the receivers have to maneuver while the QB is taking those drop steps. Having them run the same routes while the passer stands there doesn't help things! Even if the QB in pistol can take his eyes off the snap (which is asking a lot) and look at the pattern, what he can read of the defense during the time he would've been backpedaling 2 or 3 steps won't be much. For a quick pass like that, it's all got to be read either pre-snap or just looking in one place.
For example, I once put in a quick pass where as the QB is turning for a token play fake, he looks at where the TE started from, and if he sees the TE, that means he's not getting the required inside release, and instead should throw the out to the flanker. But the play's called only if we see the defense has been leaving the middle open for the TE.
My oldest son's team got *destroyed* by a team that ran the Wing-T to perfection
Wing-T or not, you're likely to get beat by any team that runs their scheme to perfection.
--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."
The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."
#BattleReady newhope
The 2 things I think contribute the most to our success over the past 9 yrs ... [since joining the team, we're 73 - 19; 8x in championship game, 5x champs; and since 2017, we're 9-3 in non-league games]
1) we run off-tackle
2) we find what the kids do best and let them do it, a lot.
That, in a nutshell, sums up the approach to teaching scheme successfully.
--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."
The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."
#BattleReady newhope
I don't see how that gets you any quicker passing...
I was unclear. Due to lack of footspeed, this particular kid would be able to get the ball out quicker.
Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?
For instance, snap thru the QB's legs to a FB who's a good passer
Actually, we tried that with a H.S. JV team back in the mid-'80's. Our DC said his team had done it back in H.S., kids thought it would be cool, so gave it a shot, nailed the QB right in the danglies, hard. Everyone was trying - unsuccessfully - not to laugh. So while he was recovering we got our back-up QB in there, with the same result. After that, we couldn't have paid anyone to try it.
guard over, ends trade. Meaning the line is unbalanced, split end to the strong side, TE weak. If Buckshort has been so good for you, it should be easy enough if the guard doesn't have to pull past center, and pulling only either the inside guard or the uncovered one.
I like this. We have run Buckshort with one G, altho I prefer two. Thanx, hadn't occurred to me.
re: Develop another passer. this upcoming draft is going to be thin and we draft last, and we're desperate for linemen, we need to be prepared to use what we have available, and an increased emphasis on the passing game fits our philosophy of letting the kids do what they do best, a lot. So, if our 2 best offensive weapons are recievers, we'll use them. If we have the artillery we need to use it. The qb coming back has some arm talent, its his foot speed that is the concern. If we rep him a ton, he can improve that, but he was getting pretty gun shy in practice with the Gs plowing him over, I think this had an affect on his confidence. If we draft a better kid for qb, its a meritocracy, the better kid gets the nod. But if we can't, the off-season is the time to leave no stone unturned in finding a better way to do what we do.
Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?
Sorry to have to ask, but...what way was that? I don't remember the discussion.
Earlier this year, my son's team played a Wing-T team that sent the FB playside on each play and the QB opened as though he were going to give it to him. I remember you saying a year or two ago that you prefer it this way, so I've always attributed that idea to you. The guys at Rome Middle School ran it to perfection (especially 182 Down!).
Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer
sent the FB playside on each play and the QB opened as though he were going to give it to him.
Didn't the FB interfere w/ the BSG's pulling on Buck? Maybe because I played G in H.S. I want to keep my Gs unhindered.
Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?
@coyote I can't say because I didn't see them run Buck Sweep. They ran mostly Down / Belly, Power, and Trap. In fact, they did it so well that I came out here and commented about it!
Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer
Sorry to have to ask, but...what way was that? I don't remember the discussion.
Earlier this year, my son's team played a Wing-T team that sent the FB playside on each play and the QB opened as though he were going to give it to him. I remember you saying a year or two ago that you prefer it this way, so I've always attributed that idea to you. The guys at Rome Middle School ran it to perfection (especially 182 Down!).
Oh, so that's what you meant by "opened up". I thought you meant "started the game". Yes, the more feedback I get, the more convinced I am that this is the future of wing T, at least at this level.
sent the FB playside on each play and the QB opened as though he were going to give it to him.
Didn't the FB interfere w/ the BSG's pulling on Buck? Maybe because I played G in H.S. I want to keep my Gs unhindered.
It shouldn't interfere any more than the dive or trap interferes with the motion back in the fly offense. It should be a tight mesh, with the FB's timing adjusted as needed. When the trap of the buck sweep series is on, the FB should hit just behind the puller's block. When the buck sweep is on, the FB should carry it out the same as if he'd gotten the ball, and fill for the PSG (assuming you pull both). On waggle, the FB should hit behind and fill for the "back side" puller -- "back side" meaning the way the sweep fake is going.
However, I'd mix the trap in with some straight bucks (dives) by the FB, same hole, no pull. And if you're really daring (and up against defenses that read and flow really well), occasionally have the FB hit the trap in the hole the PSG sucker-pulls from instead of releasing to 2nd or 3rd level. And I'm thinking if you see a lot of odd front (seems most wing T teams do run against that), FB dive with a slight delay behind a fold by the PST, double teaming the nose or turning up in that hole as suits, while the PSG fans out on a 3 tech.
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