I'm back to coaching little guys. Eight and nine years old. Haven't coached this age group in over 7 years. I used to run a counter play at that age group where I would pull the back side guard.
Trying to install it now and other coaches are telling me we have to account for the DT over that backside guard with a block out of the backfield.
I don't recall accounting for that when I coached this age group years back. We used to run that counter pull effectively. Maybe it was an oversight on my part back then.
What do you all think about this? On the few plays we intend to do this we could have a running back fill that backside A-Gap. Maybe there isn't a DT in that gap. Have the TB read the gap?
I don't want to overindex on this that's all. Thank you.
Trying to install it now and other coaches are telling me we have to account for the DT over that backside guard with a block out of the backfield.
--Um, no...you don't.
What do you all think about this?
--I think I wouldn't run it the way your coaches are saying to run it.
--We've run all sorts and kinds of Counters, over the years. Fun stuff. Great play. And we're good at it. Very good. Never wasted a backfield player by having him fill backside on a pull.
On the few plays we intend to do this we could have a running back fill that backside A-Gap. Maybe there isn't a DT in that gap. Have the TB read the gap?
--Why have a player read anything? Give them an assignment.
--If you want to fill your Backside Guard's pull on Counter, you could use your Center's down block. Or, you could have your Backside Tackle fill it. Or you could run it like we do and pull your Backside Guard and Backside Tackle and have the Center block back and the TE pull & hinge block. Or you could go unbalanced on the right, and when the defense shifts right, have your (right) Backside Guard and Tackle pull, and have your Center block backside and your Tight End block for the pulling Tackle. And if their defense didn't shift, then you didn't run unbalanced enough, or successfully to make them want to shift.
--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."
The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."
#BattleReady newhope
Trying to install it now and other coaches are telling me we have to account for the DT over that backside guard with a block out of the backfield.
What do you all think about this?
Penetration through that puller's vacated gap has to be stopped. I have my linemen on the inside and outside of the puller block down toward the hole to fill it. This is something we drill in practice by putting a fast defender over the puller and telling him to shoot through before the line can close the hole. Then we work with the linemen (usually center and tackle) to quickly squeeze together to fill the hole. They will be able to close that gap before the defender gets through. If they have trouble, you are probably too far up to the line of scrimmage, back them off a little. As long as the top of their helmet is forward of the center's belt, they are still legally on the line.
Your coaches are wrong. Don't waste a back to fill the gap. Call off the pull before wasting a back, especially at that young age.
No way to answer this question without knowing a lot more details of your offense. How big are your line splits, and how far are they recessed? (And even that supplies an answer only for average teams.) What would that back be doing if he weren't fill-blocking? What's the play side guard's assignment? What play is that counter a counter to?
Typically the blocking would be handled by a gap-down (MOMA for center) -backer scheme, which requires no fill blocking by a back. However, sometimes the most effective thing is to have a back go thru a gap in the hope of both drawing a tackle from a linebacker and blocking a penetrating lineman. So while a fill block out of the backfield may not be required, it may still be advisable.
If they have trouble, you are probably too far up to the line of scrimmage, back them off a little. As long as the top of their helmet is forward of the center's belt, they are still legally on the line.
--^ This.
Your coaches are wrong. Don't waste a back to fill the gap.
--Yep. They're wrong.
--You could use that RB as an extra lead blocker on playside. You could use him as a decoy for misdirection. But you'd waste him, when you already have a lineman (or linemen) that can do that job.
--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."
The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."
#BattleReady newhope
No way to answer this question without knowing a lot more details of your offense. How big are your line splits, and how far are they recessed? (And even that supplies an answer only for average teams.) What would that back be doing if he weren't fill-blocking? What's the play side guard's assignment? What play is that counter a counter to?
Typically the blocking would be handled by a gap-down (MOMA for center) -backer scheme, which requires no fill blocking by a back. However, sometimes the most effective thing is to have a back go thru a gap in the hope of both drawing a tackle from a linebacker and blocking a penetrating lineman. So while a fill block out of the backfield may not be required, it may still be advisable.
Bob, you aren't wrong here. But I'm willing to bet that since this is 8-9 year-old football, their LBs are backing up on their first 20-25 steps before actually pursuing anything. (Maybe I'm slightly exaggerating. Perhaps they only back up 15-20 steps...) However, if this Counter play isn't including a fake hand-off to the Back that's filling for the pull, I doubt that action will pull any defender to the LOS.
--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."
The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."
#BattleReady newhope
Not sure what kind of defensive alignments you're seeing, but we typically see at 6 man fronts at up until around 10u here. We rarely pull at all anymore with our 7u. I don't see the need if I can just chip with either my uncovered guard or uncovered tackle and get to the 2nd level to the backer. He gets there much quicker. Occasionally we'll pull on Power or Counter, but it's dependent on formation adjustments and defensive alignments.
As far as filling for the puller, I 100% echo Nathan's sentiment! Recessing the line makes the fill block much easier, we only use the RT to fill when we pull and it works just fine because we're recessed pretty deep. It also gives the puller a nice downhill angle for his path.
I don't think there's a need to have your RB fill on counter. The C and backside T should close that hole and pick up anyone coming through, especially if you're lined up shoe-to-shoe.
That being said, there are exceptions to every rule. If I know the other team won't follow my pullers, I'll pull the entire side of the line and fake to a back (watching 4 of them try to tackle him). On the other side of the coin, if the defensive guard weighs 150 pounds (as the kid we saw at 8U last week was), I might fake it to the FB to draw him away from where I want to run the play, and pull G and T. I don't do these things very often, but I could understand the argument for doing it.
Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer
Great feedback guys. Really appreciate it.
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