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Running against the Killer Bee defense

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Coyote
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Greetings Coaches

Those of you who run or face Killer Bee defenses... what gives the K-Bee D the most trouble?

It took a while, but it finally hit me, that the #2 seed in our play-offs (whom we beat 45 - 8) is trying (poorly) to run the Killer Bee Defense.  I don't believe they have the manual, but picked it up 2nd hand, but the initial alignment and DLine assignment is the same. 

If they make it past the #3 seed (Good team, not quite the roster strength and team speed as the #2 seed, but they are a handful) and if we win vs the #4 seed, we'll be facing that team again.  So, assuming every Defense has a weakness what would you emphasize against the K-Bee? 

Word is they are working very hard to get ready for our Wing T.   Wouldn't surprise me if they look past the #3 seed and get upset

Thanx

 

This topic was modified 1 year ago 2 times by Coyote

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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gumby_in_co
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Great question. I think the better question is what would I do vs an under-coached KB.

Coaching KB OLBs (force defenders) is tough. Wing T is designed to exploit force defenders. Start there. In a well run Wing T, the DE is always "wrong", right? Find out how well he's been coached right off the bat. 

DTs (2 techs) are where decent coaches put lesser players and coach them up. It's where not so decent coaches put studs, thinking you will stop every play before the QB gets out from under C. If they are studs, avoid them. If they are duds, wedge them.

Swing passes and long tosses test the play side safety and Mike. You'll find out quickly how good they are and how well they've been coached.

Bootleg/Counter/Reverse will tell quickly if they are stomping the bee. If they are not, they will get stung. 

If you have a decent passing game, "catch man" coverage is one of the hardest things to teach. Crossing/scissor routes, smash concepts, or anything that puts their secondary in a position to make a decision will reveal how much thought has gone into coverage.

However, the #1 thing that has stymied Mahonz and I running the KB is the TE passing game. Vertical and corner routes seem to go uncovered half the time. Then, there is the dreaded TE drag that we can never seem to cover.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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mahonz
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To piggy back Gumby...running against this D when talent is basically equal is tough. Passing not as tough. 

That's not to say you should pass 30 times a game....but one pass play every 5 or 6 plays will show results and actually help your run game. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Prodigy
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co

However, the #1 thing that has stymied Mahonz and I running the KB is the TE passing game. Vertical and corner routes seem to go uncovered half the time. Then, there is the dreaded TE drag that we can never seem to cover.

We ran a bastardized KB and destroyed teams.  There was one team that was well coached and their coach was extremely strategic and spent a lot of time tearing us apart.  They nailed us with TE passes, over and over and over again.  We screwed up bad because 99% of the teams we played couldn't pass and even if they could, they rarely had a chance to before we were in the backfield wrecking their day.  We didn't spend much time on pass coverage at all and that was my fault.

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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Prodigy
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I also think trap would be fairly devastating against a DT who wasn't disciplined and a team that runs base mostly.

If you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared.


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COACHDT
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Quick hitters up the middle can be tough to stop if the DE isn't compressing the B gap.  This takes alot of discipline, eventually ours start going straight up field every game, so we take them out remind them and send them back in.  Also if the DE's aren't trained to read the tackles block well, the b gap can be tough to defend. Wedges are tough because you have to have someone willing to undercut it or put more guys close to or on the line.

We had trouble with off tackle plays against SW/DW teams until I read every post on it in this forum. Our OLB's were creating huge holes ricocheting.

TE/WING  passes to the flat with a SE are tough because the OLB has to be specifically trained for it, and the corner will be covering the SE. 

Screens to a FL with the TE blocking the corner.  

If they are not trained for trips/quads, they will run into each other on the sweep by doing their regular job.

 


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J. Potter (seabass)
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I only ran this defense for 1 season. I didn’t run it long enough to know it in and out. However, we were pretty good that year. Our only losses came to the same team twice. That team made most of their money running the ball off tackle and they gutted us with the TE. It felt like he was always open. 


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Coyote
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Thanx Coaches,

They don't "Stomp the Bee" nor do the DL try to follow our Guards.   They do try to spill (at least I think that's what they're trying to do), which opens up our Buckshort, they're over-playing the Bucksweep.  My impression is they've come across the alignment, but not the assignments of the Killer Bee.

Previously, we gashed them with a ton of Belly weak and lots of Buckshort - both off-tackle plays.  I've got to believe they'll try to prevent that happening again. Pretty sure they're emphasizing the 2 Techniques talent-wise.  Like the rest of the league, they've got those late round picks whom they have to play, and seem to be trying to hide them in the 2ndry.   We'd already decided on increasing our passing looking for the mismatches.  Our QB is accurate, but weak of arm, we do have a couple kids who can catch.  Keeping our QB from being sacked has been a challenge.  

We're looking at the HB option pass to go deep.  Our HB has a strong arm, but not accurate, but we're hoping that'll loosen them up, since we expect he'll over throw the deepest kids on the filed by 10 yds.  And, since he's gotten in touch with his inner Barry Sanders these last 3 weeks, we're comfortable giving him the option to run or throw.  

Appreciate the collective wisdom, and advice.  Gonna see what we can brew up, but 1st have to get past the #4 seed Saturday.

This post was modified 1 year ago by Coyote

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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terrypjohnson
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I realize that I'm late to the party. However, I was teaching the Killer Bee this evening to both of my teams. Never seen so many kids excited to play defense before!!

In a different thread a few days ago, one of our coaching friends was talking about how he played a bigger team that wedged him to death. To his credit, Coach JustPlay made some adjustments to slow it down. Here's a link to the thread...

https://football.dumcoach.com/community/your-game-results/game-5-first-loss-of-the-season/

I'm bringing this discussion up in case it could help someone (e.g. how to attack the Bee or some ideas about how to adjust against a bigger team)

TL/DR... a well-run wedge could give the Killer Bee (or any defense for the matter) a lot of trouble.

Coach Terry

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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mpwcoachsmith
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@hawk2018 We had lots of issues with off-tackle plays, and like you said our OLBs were creating huge holes.  And like others have said, passes to the TE hurt us.

 


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @mpwcoachsmith

@hawk2018 We had lots of issues with off-tackle plays, and like you said our OLBs were creating huge holes.  And like others have said, passes to the TE hurt us.

 

If I'm telling the truth, we struggle covering TE's with ANY defense. We don't see many good off-tackle teams, so when we do, we typically have a week's worth of prep and it shows on game day. So we sometimes struggle with off-tackle as well. One specific exception was our Mike was a monster one year. When we stuffed a UBSW wedge with rotating submariners, they turned to Power. Our Mike single-handedly crushed their power.  Part of it is all the prep we do (used to do with older kids) vs spread teams and coverage with 2nd level defenders. It's a challenge to shift them in to downhill run stuffers. Mike is an exception because we almost never give him a coverage responsibility other than robbing the short middle, regardless of the defense we run.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @terrypjohnson

TL/DR... a well-run wedge could give the Killer Bee (or any defense for the matter) a lot of trouble.

Coach Terry

And if I continue to be honest, we rarely see a well-run wedge. One team ran a very good one out of UBSW with our last group of kids. Wedge was the only thing that kept them in the game, but we never lost to them. It's a small, tight knit org who we now face with our new group and have not been able to beat them. They passed down the same side-saddle UBSW from the older kids to the young kids, but they don't wedge well. I mean, they score a lot running it, but it's not well blocked and the BB does not use the wedge. He's just a man-child with speed, size and power who tends to score no matter how they get him the ball. They are very effective at their Jet sweep, so when the BB gets the ball, the defense is typically focused elsewhere. Then, this kid just does his thing.

We learned that the hard way when we cut their wedge, only to realize they didn't need it. Dude would turn wedge into a BB sweep and score.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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terrypjohnson
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @terrypjohnson

TL/DR... a well-run wedge could give the Killer Bee (or any defense for the matter) a lot of trouble.

Coach Terry

And if I continue to be honest, we rarely see a well-run wedge. One team ran a very good one out of UBSW with our last group of kids. Wedge was the only thing that kept them in the game, but we never lost to them. It's a small, tight knit org who we now face with our new group and have not been able to beat them. They passed down the same side-saddle UBSW from the older kids to the young kids, but they don't wedge well. I mean, they score a lot running it, but it's not well blocked and the BB does not use the wedge. He's just a man-child with speed, size and power who tends to score no matter how they get him the ball. They are very effective at their Jet sweep, so when the BB gets the ball, the defense is typically focused elsewhere. Then, this kid just does his thing.

We learned that the hard way when we cut their wedge, only to realize they didn't need it. Dude would turn wedge into a BB sweep and score.

That's an accurate statement! Teams don't run it much down here. Heck, I tried to get the 10U coaches to install wedge, they looked at me as if I'd hurled an insult at their mother.

I just thought I'd throw it out there in case anyone was looking for ideas against the Killer Bee.

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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J. Potter (seabass)
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Knowing what I know now...I think we would have success running power against the Bee. We never played a team that ran it so I can't say for sure. The responsibilities and alignment of the front set's up power pretty well....IMO


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @terrypjohnson

 

I just thought I'd throw it out there in case anyone was looking for ideas against the Killer Bee.

No doubt. I would definitely want to wedge against a decent KB.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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