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Running against the Killer Bee defense  

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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 17398
North Carolina
High School
October 1, 2020 1:04 pm  
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @mpwcoachsmith

@hawk2018 We had lots of issues with off-tackle plays, and like you said our OLBs were creating huge holes.  And like others have said, passes to the TE hurt us.

 

If I'm telling the truth, we struggle covering TE's with ANY defense. We don't see many good off-tackle teams, so when we do, we typically have a week's worth of prep and it shows on game day. So we sometimes struggle with off-tackle as well. One specific exception was our Mike was a monster one year. When we stuffed a UBSW wedge with rotating submariners, they turned to Power. Our Mike single-handedly crushed their power.  Part of it is all the prep we do (used to do with older kids) vs spread teams and coverage with 2nd level defenders. It's a challenge to shift them in to downhill run stuffers. Mike is an exception because we almost never give him a coverage responsibility other than robbing the short middle, regardless of the defense we run.

So lemme get this straight, with the KB you struggle against off-tackle, Wedge and the TE pass.  I haven't run the Killer Bee.  So what does it do well?

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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soul strife
(@soul-strife)
Copper
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 14
October 1, 2020 1:41 pm  

I have a smash call for our DT's.  When we play a wedge team both DT will hit the center and blow him back.  Think Center Stone but with shoulder pads not hands.  This is a stunt call so it's not in our base but obviously gets attention.  


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terrypjohnson
(@terrypjohnson)
Bronze
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 281
United States
Head Coach
October 1, 2020 1:43 pm  

@coachdp - Here's what's special about it for me... there are other coaches that can certainly add to what I'm saying since they know it much better than I do.

The OLB's play similar to how you explained in another thread... they pursue outside to in. The only difference is that they "ricochet" - (e.g. take on the defender and bounce outside) on sweep.

The safeties and Mike are also in great shape to make the play because of their alignment. Thanks to the defensive line posititoning, there are no blockers to block Mike - he's almost always in position to make the play as long as he remembers to "stomp the bee". Similarly, the safeties are aligned two steps inside of the second widest receiver to each side ... they can crossover against a formation such as SW or Beast, so overloads don't cause any confusion for the kids.

I also like the pass coverage. It produces a lot of opportunities for picks -- if the OLB's don't get to the QB first. I won my season finale on a pick six because the QB didn't even see my corner - who was perfectly positioned to stop the slant route.

 

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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COACHDT
(@hawk2018)
Copper
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 33
October 1, 2020 3:58 pm  

@coachdp

It worked great against off tackle without a wing.  Sw and DW teams gave me fits because the OLB was still ricocheting off the wing....which was a coaching mistake by me.  I figured I had screwed up something so I came on here and found Clarks thread about getting the OLB behind the TE.  Once I coached the position correctly it smothered those teams.   

Same thing with the other issues I mentioned.  I would imagine its like any other defense, if poorly coached they have problems with those plays. I was pointing out problems that my defense had because of the me not learning the finer points...not the defense. Once I learned the way the defense worked it handles those plays well.  It's a coaching intensive defense.  

 


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 22974
October 1, 2020 6:02 pm  
Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @mpwcoachsmith

@hawk2018 We had lots of issues with off-tackle plays, and like you said our OLBs were creating huge holes.  And like others have said, passes to the TE hurt us.

 

If I'm telling the truth, we struggle covering TE's with ANY defense. We don't see many good off-tackle teams, so when we do, we typically have a week's worth of prep and it shows on game day. So we sometimes struggle with off-tackle as well. One specific exception was our Mike was a monster one year. When we stuffed a UBSW wedge with rotating submariners, they turned to Power. Our Mike single-handedly crushed their power.  Part of it is all the prep we do (used to do with older kids) vs spread teams and coverage with 2nd level defenders. It's a challenge to shift them in to downhill run stuffers. Mike is an exception because we almost never give him a coverage responsibility other than robbing the short middle, regardless of the defense we run.

So lemme get this straight, with the KB you struggle against off-tackle, Wedge and the TE pass.  I haven't run the Killer Bee.  So what does it do well?

--Dave

Its a good D if you run out of talent along the way. I'd much rather run the 46 but I run out of talent...currently. KB is more MP friendly. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
Platinum
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 4148
October 2, 2020 2:52 am  
Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @mpwcoachsmith

@hawk2018 We had lots of issues with off-tackle plays, and like you said our OLBs were creating huge holes.  And like others have said, passes to the TE hurt us.

 

If I'm telling the truth, we struggle covering TE's with ANY defense. We don't see many good off-tackle teams, so when we do, we typically have a week's worth of prep and it shows on game day. So we sometimes struggle with off-tackle as well. One specific exception was our Mike was a monster one year. When we stuffed a UBSW wedge with rotating submariners, they turned to Power. Our Mike single-handedly crushed their power.  Part of it is all the prep we do (used to do with older kids) vs spread teams and coverage with 2nd level defenders. It's a challenge to shift them in to downhill run stuffers. Mike is an exception because we almost never give him a coverage responsibility other than robbing the short middle, regardless of the defense we run.

So lemme get this straight, with the KB you struggle against off-tackle, Wedge and the TE pass.  I haven't run the Killer Bee.  So what does it do well?

--Dave

Everything else

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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rpatric
(@rpatric)
Bronze
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 173
Maryland
6th - 8th
Head Coach
October 2, 2020 8:07 am  

@gumby_in_co

100% agree about the OLB's in the KB. If memory serves, I believe Clark didn't require overtly talented players at the position. What I found was that if I played lesser players here, we got lit up because our safeties could not hit their mark in time on sweeps leaving my CB's all alone with their asses in the breeze.

The manual suggested putting weaker players at CB since they shouldn't be need to stop sweeps.

If your opponent is running KB by the book and you can beat his safeties to the alley, you should be able to run outside all day long.

Now, as far as pass coverage was concerned, I absolutely loved the Quarters coverage. After scouting and studying our opponents, we were able to recognize their passing plays pre snap in most cases. I would instruct the CB's and Safeties to sit in their zones and wait for a receiver to come their way. On many occasions, the QB threw the ball right to us. We had 1 game where the opponent, who was a top tier team in our conference, attempted to throw 8 times. They completed 2 for minimal gains, we picked them 3 times, sacked them 3 times, and 2 passes went way over everyones heads. All from simply sitting in our zones and waiting.

Not sure if this helps, but I would look at film and see how strong their OLB's and CB's are, as well as how they are approaching pass defense


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rpatric
(@rpatric)
Bronze
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 173
Maryland
6th - 8th
Head Coach
October 2, 2020 8:24 am  

@coachdp

I will say this Dave, it is very similar to your defense alignment wise. That's pretty much where the similarities end.

That said, if you can get your players in the right position, easier said than done in this defense, get perfect execution, nearly impossible with DE's and Safeties (at least in my experience), and make proper reads, which with no help from other coaches I wasn't good enough to teach.... the defense will stop just about anything.

There is way too much engaging of offensive players resulting in huge holes while also giving the backs time to think. We learned quickly that such an intelligent defense was actually counterintuitive against such basic offenses. In other words, why try to confuse a lineman that doesn't have an actual scheme? It actually favors the lineman if you pay attention to him at all.

The defense does defend Spread better than anything I've seen, and in my opinion, it would be an amazing High School defense with a few adjustments to personnel and Safety depth, 5yds is too shallow IMO. The combination of Quarters coverage and edge rushers coming from both sides makes it extremely hard for the QB to find anything other than a back out of the backfield. If you train your edge players to look for BOOB's, you can take that option away as well.

It's definitely a good scheme, it just requires more than the average, or even slightly above average youth coaching staff can or is willing to deal with.

FYI Dave, your way of approaching defense makes much more sense to me! Especially since I'm not trying to defend the Kansas City Chiefs


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JustPlay
(@rjbthor)
Silver
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 559
October 3, 2020 2:49 pm  

Well the KB does soe great things. Outside running and passing should be minimal. We always gets tons of picks and TLF. It lets bad coaches have a chance until you start the vertical passing in trips and duces. The advantage of the olb giving you a front loaded zone look is helpful for the short game. If you can pass vertical 12 yards off the line it is rally a one on one cover. So your best dude on the cb. In my D I have great corners. They are more like having an extra seet of OLB. If you hide a MPP at corner you are toast if they can throw. also the backside TE release off of a diamond strong side stung us today.

The other day we were wedged pretty hard. My guys had to bear crawl - if they would even do it to stop getting pushed back. You only have 5 guys in the box - within 3 yards of the LOS. quick hitters to B gap work as long as the line slant call is not coming your way. If it is you are TFL.

if I had a running game that pulled well I would use that.

nothing replaces effort. nothing replaces the mind. One with out the other is a waste of time.


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