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Suicide sucker play? (finessing the ace)


Bob Goodman
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Have you or anyone you know of attempted a play where the ballcarrier's otherwise a blocker in that play series and runs approximately straight at the unblocked opponent he'd otherwise be blocking?

What's the general description of the play series?

How were the results when the play was run?

Did it improve the result of his blocking on the complementary play(s) in the series?

How old and experienced were the players, especially the opposing players?

How often did you run it, and how often did you run its complementary play(s) in the series?

Would the block the player ordinarily throws be with hands, a shoulder, or some other technique?

When the player carried the ball on this play, was he supposed to have it on the side nearer or farther away from the unblocked opponent?

Have you thought about installing such a play, but never did?


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Bob Goodman
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I gotta believe the only reason this set of questions hasn't gotten any answers is because I posted it during a time many thought the forum was gone, and since then it's slipped off the chronologic list of unread messages.  So I hope nobody minds this bumping.


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ZACH
 ZACH
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Posted by: @bob-goodman

Have you or anyone you know of attempted a play where the ballcarrier's otherwise a blocker in that play series and runs approximately straight at the unblocked opponent he'd otherwise be blocking?

What's the general description of the play series?

How were the results when the play was run?

Did it improve the result of his blocking on the complementary play(s) in the series?

How old and experienced were the players, especially the opposing players?

How often did you run it, and how often did you run its complementary play(s) in the series?

Would the block the player ordinarily throws be with hands, a shoulder, or some other technique?

When the player carried the ball on this play, was he supposed to have it on the side nearer or farther away from the unblocked opponent?

Have you thought about installing such a play, but never did?

First I thought of the "influence" play from Delaware wing t but that doesn't fit what your describing I don't think. 

 

Are you talking about something like running power from 2 back let's say where the FB normally kicks the force player but instead of blocking him he runs right at him with the ball instead? 

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @bucksweep58
Posted by: @bob-goodman

Have you or anyone you know of attempted a play where the ballcarrier's otherwise a blocker in that play series and runs approximately straight at the unblocked opponent he'd otherwise be blocking?

What's the general description of the play series?

How were the results when the play was run?

Did it improve the result of his blocking on the complementary play(s) in the series?

How old and experienced were the players, especially the opposing players?

How often did you run it, and how often did you run its complementary play(s) in the series?

Would the block the player ordinarily throws be with hands, a shoulder, or some other technique?

When the player carried the ball on this play, was he supposed to have it on the side nearer or farther away from the unblocked opponent?

Have you thought about installing such a play, but never did?

First I thought of the "influence" play from Delaware wing t but that doesn't fit what your describing I don't think. 

 

Are you talking about something like running power from 2 back let's say where the FB normally kicks the force player but instead of blocking him he runs right at him with the ball instead? 

That'd be an example of what I'm asking about, yes.  What weakens that particular example is that it might look too much like a play from another series where the FB carries the ball.


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mahonz
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Like this?

This post was modified 2 weeks ago 2 times by mahonz

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @mahonz

Like this?

If it's part of a series with similar plays where he'd be blocking in that direction, yes.

Early in this century someone on Delphi's single wing, etc. forum who coached a team in England put up a link to a video that included a play that looked just like their regular power off-tackle, except that their fullback had taken the snap and run his usual lead blocking path with the tailback behind him.  Like that.

What I'm actually thinking about is slipping the ball to a guard pulling across center and looking like he's blocking for trap or power while the other players foster that illusion.  We did that a few times in 2015 to great effect.


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mahonz
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Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @mahonz

Like this?

If it's part of a series with similar plays where he'd be blocking in that direction, yes.

Early in this century someone on Delphi's single wing, etc. forum who coached a team in England put up a link to a video that included a play that looked just like their regular power off-tackle, except that their fullback had taken the snap and run his usual lead blocking path with the tailback behind him.  Like that.

What I'm actually thinking about is slipping the ball to a guard pulling across center and looking like he's blocking for trap or power while the other players foster that illusion.  We did that a few times in 2015 to great effect.

We liked the concept enough that we dotted it into the Offense here and there over the years. Sometimes its was counter-esk....sometimes a power follow type play that I got from Joe. But I get what you are saying. 

 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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terrypjohnson
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Posted by: @mahonz

Like this?

"Get off my sideline" LOL

Fight 'em until Hell freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice -- Dutch Meyer


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mahonz
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Posted by: @terrypjohnson
Posted by: @mahonz

Like this?

"Get off my sideline" LOL

LOL....my son was very animated. He was friends with everyone. We dont play in stadiums....he was probably yelling at a coach that was scouting us. All in fun.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @mahonz
Posted by: @terrypjohnson
Posted by: @mahonz

Like this?

"Get off my sideline" LOL

LOL....my son was very animated. He was friends with everyone. We dont play in stadiums....he was probably yelling at a coach that was scouting us. All in fun.

At the 0:33 mark, two of your Backs hit themselves in the head.  Is that some sort of signal?

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
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Just to stimulate the discussion further, I'll answer my own questions as if I'd already done it. Actually I have, but not in the version I'd like to now, so I'll get to that below.

Have you or anyone you know of attempted a play where the ballcarrier's otherwise a blocker in that play series and runs approximately straight at the unblocked opponent he'd otherwise be blocking?

What's the general description of the play series?

This was in the sidesaddle T in 2015.  The play series was one in which the pulling G came behind the QB, or at least where the QB started, and then would kick out either the DE or the first player to that side of the C, depending on whether it was the off-tackle, the trap, or the fly trap; or would lead around the edge for the sweep or sweep-pass.  Because of the QB's positioning, it was easy for him to make a backwards handoff to the G.

But the version I'd like to try is from an ordinary, QB-facing-forward wing T.  Well, ordinary except for the QB's legs being spread enough to snap thru, like Sigourney-Keota HS's spin T.

How were the results when the play was run?

Spectacular when the officials allowed it.  (Confused regarding the rules of backwards vs. forwards handoffs to OL.)

Did it improve the result of his blocking on the complementary play(s) in the series?

Wish I'd been paying attention.

How old and experienced were the players, especially the opposing players?

8-10 YOs, mostly 0-1 yr. experience in house ball.

What I'm contemplating now is 9Us or 10Us with probably mostly 1 or 2 yrs. with Delaware wing T, but none with me.

How often did you run it, and how often did you run its complementary play(s) in the series?

Not as often as the sweep or sweep-pass, but equally often to the trap. The fly trap never got installed, though I think we practiced it once.  These plays were all run in only one direction apiece.

In the forward-facing wing T, I'd like to mirror the positions and plays left and right.

Would the block the player ordinarily throws be with hands, a shoulder, or some other technique?

I wasn't picky.  He was one of the two best athletes on the team, he'd dominate whomever he blocked in that league most of the time.

But what I'd like is head-in-the-hole shoulder blocking on the kickouts.

When the player carried the ball on this play, was he supposed to have it on the side nearer or farther away from the unblocked opponent?

He got an inside handoff and would tuck it away on the far side from that opponent.

I want to do that again.

Have you thought about installing such a play, but never did?

 


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mahonz
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Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @mahonz
Posted by: @terrypjohnson
Posted by: @mahonz

Like this?

"Get off my sideline" LOL

LOL....my son was very animated. He was friends with everyone. We dont play in stadiums....he was probably yelling at a coach that was scouting us. All in fun.

At the 0:33 mark, two of your Backs hit themselves in the head.  Is that some sort of signal?

--Dave

Yes. If I remember right these were 3rd graders so pretty young. Our Backs were tasked to tap their helmets if they understood the play call since everything was 100% check with me so everything was coded. They had the most to remember since we were running Wing T with a 4 man mesh at times. They would tap their helmets to let the play caller know....Im good. Lets do this. 

You will also notice the OLM double tap their thigh pads and then get in their 2 point stance. This assured all 5 or 6 were on the same page ready to go in unison. The hardest part about coaching this age on Offense is to get all 11 facing the same direction at the same time on any given play so we implemented a few tricks to help that process along. Our play calling basically included some response from the players back to the play caller. 

Eventually as they got older....not necessary. 

 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @mahonz

Yes. If I remember right these were 3rd graders so pretty young. Our Backs were tasked to tap their helmets if they understood the play call since everything was 100% check with me so everything was coded. They had the most to remember since we were running Wing T with a 4 man mesh at times. They would tap their helmets to let the play caller know....Im good. Lets do this. 

You will also notice the OLM double tap their thigh pads and then get in their 2 point stance. This assured all 5 or 6 were on the same page ready to go in unison. The hardest part about coaching this age on Offense is to get all 11 facing the same direction at the same time on any given play so we implemented a few tricks to help that process along. Our play calling basically included some response from the players back to the play caller. 

Eventually as they got older....not necessary. 

 

Keenan and I stole the helmet tap from Walker. Remember his sign language?  I think the thigh pad thing was my idea. "Thump Thump, HIT!" or some such thing.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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mahonz
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @mahonz

Yes. If I remember right these were 3rd graders so pretty young. Our Backs were tasked to tap their helmets if they understood the play call since everything was 100% check with me so everything was coded. They had the most to remember since we were running Wing T with a 4 man mesh at times. They would tap their helmets to let the play caller know....Im good. Lets do this. 

You will also notice the OLM double tap their thigh pads and then get in their 2 point stance. This assured all 5 or 6 were on the same page ready to go in unison. The hardest part about coaching this age on Offense is to get all 11 facing the same direction at the same time on any given play so we implemented a few tricks to help that process along. Our play calling basically included some response from the players back to the play caller. 

Eventually as they got older....not necessary. 

 

Keenan and I stole the helmet tap from Walker. Remember his sign language?  I think the thigh pad thing was my idea. "Thump Thump, HIT!" or some such thing.

None of that was my idea for sure. Im not that clever. 😊 I remember being your film'r that year and would pretend I was filming Walkers sideline as they did all their signs. They noticed pretty quickly what I was doing....or what they thought I was doing since I was on a ladder. I wasn't even recording them.... I'd hit record once the play was about to start. He started having coaches stand in my line of sight. They would wave at me....I waved back to let them know I knew I was terrorizing them. 😎😎

Fun year. Jordan was born that year. Keenan was up all night before your game 8 vs Lakewood.  Jodi kicked him and Kane out of the hospital  about 6am and since it was kid #4 she needed some peace an quite.  They were driving her batchit crazy anticipating the game. You all had to win to get into the playoffs and Keenan and Kane were on no sleep. That year there were like 20 Teams in the Division so it took 5 wins to get in. Lakewood was the #2 Seed with one loss and you beat them in spectacular fashion.

I will never forget that day...Jorden's birth about 2am and your massive win against a VERY VERY good opponent at 10am.👍🏈 

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by mahonz

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Bob Goodman
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I should explain what I meant by the subtitle, "finessing the ace".  In trick-taking card games where high card wins, like bridge, where you don't know who holds which cards, there's a type of play called a "finesse" in which you can sometimes win a trick because a player who holds a high card is deterred by not knowing who holds an even higher card.  However, there are situations in which you can finesse an ace, beating the player who holds an unbeatable card, by assuming that player has already played a lower card instead.

Here the ace is the unblocked defender who you're running at.  You make him think you're going to block him, so he ducks the block or plays off it, and thereby doesn't make the tackle.  If your deception fails, the play goes nowhere and you've wasted a down, might even fumble.  But if your deception succeeds, it's not only the unblocked defender who might let you go.  And then on the complementary play, he tries to make the tackle, making your block perfect as the defender doesn't try to play off it.


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