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Coyote
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February 21, 2020 12:15 pm  

Greetings

For those who are committed to a wing in their formation…  What are your best arguments for keeping the wing?

My HC has our team on his mind all year long, plots and plans, contingencies, loves to play the “What if…” game.   He particularly loves the Draft (one of the reasons we work so well together, he loves practically everything I dislike doing – and vice versa) and is already looking at who, what, when and etc. of this upcoming draft. 

He has a pretty a good idea every yr of who to draft and who to avoid and what the kids coming up from the PeeWees (2nd grade and under*) are like,  and his knowledge of the other coaches… He’s been very good at predicting who will be there when we draft.

He believes that  ( and we’re drafting last again)  based on what we’ll pick up and how Belly Weak was such a big play for us last season (HB Leads the FB) …. He's thinking full-house double Tight and running Belly weak to both sides.  No wing.   We won’t tip our strength that way.  

My response: Part of our success with Belly weak was due to teams over-playing our Wing side.   We can simply flip the formation (100 to 900) to get the same thing.  But he’s thinking we’ll likely pick up two HB’s who are OK runners but really good blockers = stronger blocking less play-making ability.  This to go with a potential stud FB who played WB last season (I really like this kid for FB).

But, I thought It’d be interesting to hear your thoughts on it. 

What are your best arguments for keeping the wing?

Thanx

 

*The league added the PeeWees 20+ ago, b/c of all the little brothers running around during practice and the parents finally demanded it.  It is – without question – the toughest job in coaching to work with that age group.  

 

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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CoachDP
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February 21, 2020 12:29 pm  
Posted by: @coyote

He believes that  ( and we’re drafting last again)  based on what we’ll pick up and how Belly Weak was such a big play for us last season (HB Leads the FB) …. He's thinking full-house double Tight and running Belly weak to both sides.  No wing.   We won’t tip our strength that way.  

But he’s thinking we’ll likely pick up two HB’s who are OK runners but really good blockers = stronger blocking less play-making ability.  This to go with a potential stud FB who played WB last season (I really like this kid for FB).

But, I thought It’d be interesting to hear your thoughts on it. 

And if you don't get these kids?  What if they move away/don't want to play/would rather play a different sport?  This is one reason I don't choose a scheme based on personnel.  Personnel should dictate who and what I feature within my scheme.  I've been a "Wing guy" for more than a decade and personnel never once dictated whether we would run the Double Wing.  And unless you're Joe, I have great doubts that one can be an expert in more than one scheme.  I'd rather be an expert in one, than just generally-familiar with coaching several different schemes (unless I'm a position coach).  However, just being "generally-familiar" with a scheme may still be enough to be a winner at the youth level.  My advice?  Be the best, most knowledgable you can be at a particular scheme and you won't be personnel-dependent to be successful.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
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February 21, 2020 4:32 pm  
Posted by: @coyote

For those who are committed to a wing in their formation…  What are your best arguments for keeping the wing?

My HC has our team on his mind all year long, plots and plans, contingencies, loves to play the “What if…” game.   He particularly loves the Draft (one of the reasons we work so well together, he loves practically everything I dislike doing – and vice versa) and is already looking at who, what, when and etc. of this upcoming draft. 

He has a pretty a good idea every yr of who to draft and who to avoid and what the kids coming up from the PeeWees (2nd grade and under*) are like,  and his knowledge of the other coaches… He’s been very good at predicting who will be there when we draft.

He believes that  ( and we’re drafting last again)  based on what we’ll pick up and how Belly Weak was such a big play for us last season (HB Leads the FB) …. He's thinking full-house double Tight and running Belly weak to both sides.  No wing.   We won’t tip our strength that way.  

My response: Part of our success with Belly weak was due to teams over-playing our Wing side.   We can simply flip the formation (100 to 900) to get the same thing.  But he’s thinking we’ll likely pick up two HB’s who are OK runners but really good blockers = stronger blocking less play-making ability.  This to go with a potential stud FB who played WB last season (I really like this kid for FB).

But, I thought It’d be interesting to hear your thoughts on it. 

What are your best arguments for keeping the wing? 

Looks like the real question is not whether to keep a wingback in the formation, but rather whether to draft (or trade, if your circuit allows trades) for a running back or a blocking back.  Who you get (and what your HC thinks about his abilities) will decide whether you go straight T or wing T.

I've coached winged and wingless systems and prefer the ones with a wingback, but if I had a plan for the draft like your HC does, that would override my consideration, because straight and wing T systems aren't that much different.  Dave Potter's objection doesn't seem to me to apply here, because they're practically variations of the same offense.  You don't know who you'll wind up with as HBs anyway, so it's always possible you'll decide playing one at WB suits hir better anyway.

My main argument on your side would be, what if you try to rely on the FB alone as playmaker, and something happens?  So it seems a little risky to not try to draft for more running ability -- for backs who can make hay around the edges, for one thing.


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Coyote
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February 21, 2020 5:55 pm  

Greetings

To clarify, my HC loves to play what if... and if we get the kinda kids he thinks we will...  what if we went without the wing and concentrated on running Belly Weak both sides... (which was big play for us last season)  We'd still run Trap, Buck short / sweep and Belly sweep and belly counter.  If we don't get the the kinda kids he believes we will, we'll just keep rolling with the wing.  

If we get those kinda kids he's looking at... there are 3-4  coming up who are better blockers than big play threats -  the other coaches look for play-makers not chain-movers the 1st couple rounds...  (both our Gs are coming back from last season)  - He believes 2 of them will be there for us.   

But its less about the kids than the advantages of the WB in the formation I'm asking about...

Regardless of the reasons my HC is playing with the idea....  what is your best argument for the Wing?

Thanx

 

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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Coach Kyle
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February 21, 2020 6:03 pm  

I'd make the decision on whether or not you have a kid who can hook or log the end. A lot of double tight formations will fake a dive, and then have the QB keep and try to get outside. That's fine if your fakes are good enough to sucker in the end so that someone can hook block him. I think it's really important because I don't want to have no outside plays in youth football. Some teams are just so bad at contain that it's free all game long.

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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Bob Goodman
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February 21, 2020 6:13 pm  
Posted by: @coyote

To clarify, my HC loves to play what if... and if we get the kinda kids he thinks we will...  what if we went without the wing and concentrated on running Belly Weak both sides... (which was big play for us last season)  We'd still run Trap, Buck short / sweep and Belly sweep and belly counter.  If we don't get the the kinda kids he believes we will, we'll just keep rolling with the wing.  

If we get those kinda kids he's looking at... there are 3-4  coming up who are better blockers than big play threats -  the other coaches look for play-makers not chain-movers the 1st couple rounds...  (both our Gs are coming back from last season)  - He believes 2 of them will be there for us.   

But its less about the kids than the advantages of the WB in the formation I'm asking about...

Regardless of the reasons my HC is playing with the idea....  what is your best argument for the Wing? 

That doesn't clarify it for me!  Are you asking for reasons to keep a wingback position even if you both think the players are better suited to eliminate it?  Or just reasons I like wing T generally?

If that's your question, I can't think of a competitive reason to do so.  The only reasons I can think of would be:

  1. You (singular, not necessarily both of you) would be happier with it, so you'll coach better.
  2. A player or two would get to learn another position.

These reasons are not specific to wing T of course.  The only reasons I can think of specific to wing T versus straight T, if I didn't know anything about the players or the coaches, would be:

  • It's suited to jet/fly sweep.
  • Better timing for counter plays.
  • Stretching out that side of the attack for blocking purposes.
  • The rub possibilities on pass patterns with the TE, plus just getting the WB out there on passes generally.

But honestly I'd probably side with your HC in this.


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Dusty Ol Fart
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February 21, 2020 8:07 pm  

I'm going to be blunt.  Bob, WTH??  My experience says If you know how to organize and work things within a system (As Dave P) points out, why on earth would I want to rearrange what I do?  I know of a few Crazy People (Mike) who are very willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  However, he is the exception rather than the rule.  Right or Wrong I ran what our HS ran in all but my last 2 seasons as Coach (Topic for another Discussion) .  In short Winged T, I formation, and Double Wing.  I would say, with all honesty, in the aforementioned causes our squads were roughly 65/35 winning percentage.  None of which had to do with the "Offensive System"" but how much or little we could execute within same.  

I cant fault a coach who says this is what I know and we "Forge Ahead" doing that.  I've made my adjustments, here we go!  I've seen it year over year at our HS.  State Semi finalists 2 of 3 years.  We don't change the Offense, We change what we do within it!  

4 years ago our FB set the record for the number of carries in a Playoff Game!  Opposing Coach was heard to say...We're going to make this kid "All State" in one GD Game!  

Never do the Flip Flop Philosophy!  

 

 

 

 

 

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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CoachDP
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February 21, 2020 9:29 pm  
Posted by: @coyote

If we get those kinda kids he's looking at... there are 3-4  coming up who are better blockers than big play threats -  the other coaches look for play-makers not chain-movers the 1st couple rounds...  (both our Gs are coming back from last season)  - He believes 2 of them will be there for us. 

--Okay, great.  Your header loves the draft.  Not really sure what difference that makes...🙄 

Regardless of the reasons my HC is playing with the idea....  what is your best argument for the Wing?

--Which Wing?

--Dave

 

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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February 21, 2020 9:31 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman

That doesn't clarify it for me! 

Coyote, and this is BOB saying this. ^  That speaks volumes.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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gumby_in_co
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February 22, 2020 10:02 am  

WB might be my favorite position on offense. Here are some of my arguments for a WB from the perspective of a defensive coach:

1) Puts my force defender in a pickle. a) play inside the wing and get sealed. b) play outside the wing and leave the edge weaker.

2) Receiving threat that creates a mini "bunch" with the TE.

3) Put a flanker on the same side and now you're really screwing with my coverage rules. Also, you're forcing me to use my 3rd best coverage defender and sometimes, he sucks. Or, you pull a better player from the other side, leaving my 4th best coverage player to cover the weak side receiver, or leaving the weak side weaker vs the run.

4) Blocking back with a clear path to any of 2-3 LBs

5) Jet motion for a quick hitting sweep

6) Jet motion for a fake sweep, screwing with my weak side force defender

7) Jet motion for a fake sweep screwing with my LBs

8) Jet motion to kick out my weak side force defender

9) Multiple counter/reverse options

10) Motion and toss to the weak side

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Bob Goodman
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February 22, 2020 12:48 pm  
Posted by: @youth-coach

I'm going to be blunt.  Bob, WTH??  My experience says If you know how to organize and work things within a system (As Dave P) points out, why on earth would I want to rearrange what I do?  I know of a few Crazy People (Mike) who are very willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  However, he is the exception rather than the rule.

How much do you have to rearrange to simply move the WB to HB and run belly the same both ways?  Some wing T coaches consider "full" (straight T) a mere formation variant -- same as they might have wing to the weak side, double wings, unbalanced line, WB and HB to the same side (that's our "Strong"), etc.


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CoachSteel
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February 22, 2020 12:57 pm  

I think having a wing in the offense makes you more versatile. If you plan on running a lot of Belly I think that Belly Sweep is a must have compliment. Running Belly Sweep from a straight T is a lot harder timing wise than if he’s coming from the winged position. We ran a lot of jet motion with the wing on our belly play last season. That jet motion from the wing usually gets those ends and OLBs to widen out or take a step or two the wrong way opening up that belly. Hell sometimes we didn’t even have to block the ends and our belly started looking more like a Veer. In any case, if you plan on running a lot of Belly I think your selling yourself short not having a wing. It gives you a lot more deception and options in the run game. 


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Bob Goodman
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February 22, 2020 3:32 pm  
Posted by: @coachsteel

I think having a wing in the offense makes you more versatile. If you plan on running a lot of Belly I think that Belly Sweep is a must have compliment. Running Belly Sweep from a straight T is a lot harder timing wise than if he’s coming from the winged position.

No need to waste any time on belly sweep from HB position.  Just meet the HB about the same place you'd've meshed with the other HB on buck sweep.  Defense is going to be looking at the FB, so his mesh with the QB doesn't have to be too convincing, just a proximity fake.  However, if you wanted to make it look good, a little wasting time by the HB wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.


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Dusty Ol Fart
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February 22, 2020 5:30 pm  

I call Bullsh*t on "Proximity Fakes".  The better your fakes the more devastating your Wing T , Double Wing, ground game will be!   I guarantee you the Coach whose QB shows the defense the ball, the kid who takes 2 steps and quits cause he doesn't have the ball,  The Back who refuses to block, has a Good Wing coach pulling their hair out.  I will also say anyone who doesn't hold their Backs to a High Standard on Fakes and How to Run will suffer.  To that point, it doesn't matter if I use Speed or Power.  What matters is being able to execute one or the other or (preferably) both.  

Our HS has made the Semi Finals 2 of the past 3 years.  I know what they run and how they run it.  I can attest that I have been fooled by their fakes more than once, and I know whats coming!!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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CoachSteel
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February 22, 2020 9:37 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @coachsteel

I think having a wing in the offense makes you more versatile. If you plan on running a lot of Belly I think that Belly Sweep is a must have compliment. Running Belly Sweep from a straight T is a lot harder timing wise than if he’s coming from the winged position.

No need to waste any time on belly sweep from HB position.  Just meet the HB about the same place you'd've meshed with the other HB on buck sweep.  Defense is going to be looking at the FB, so his mesh with the QB doesn't have to be too convincing, just a proximity fake.  However, if you wanted to make it look good, a little wasting time by the HB wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

To each their own I guess, but I think the QB riding the belly fake from hip to hip is a must. That’s what makes the Belly sweep so deadly. Once those ends start over committing to stop the belly, belly sweep usually goes for big yards. When your wing is coming from the wing position it gives the QB and FB time to to really sell that fake, QB takes one more step to 6’oclock after the fake and the wing is there at the perfect time. We run Down sweep to our HB from from the traditional HB spot and it never seems to time up as well as belly sweep. I think when the defense sees both backs in the backfield diving into the weak side B gap they don’t expect another back coming around for a sweep because they don’t see him in the backfield at the start of the play. 


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