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32wedge
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February 23, 2020 9:29 am  
Posted by: @coyote

He's thinking full-house double Tight and running Belly weak to both sides.  No wing.   We won’t tip our strength that way.

What are your best arguments for keeping the wing?

 

 

My advice is to run the Belly from your Full House formation sometimes and run it from Wing formations at other times.  If you don't draft a kid smart enough to line in two different locations, you can train one kid for in the backfield and another kid at wing and sub them in and out to change formations.


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Bob Goodman
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February 23, 2020 6:34 pm  
Posted by: @coachsteel
Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @coachsteel

I think having a wing in the offense makes you more versatile. If you plan on running a lot of Belly I think that Belly Sweep is a must have compliment. Running Belly Sweep from a straight T is a lot harder timing wise than if he’s coming from the winged position.

No need to waste any time on belly sweep from HB position.  Just meet the HB about the same place you'd've meshed with the other HB on buck sweep.  Defense is going to be looking at the FB, so his mesh with the QB doesn't have to be too convincing, just a proximity fake.  However, if you wanted to make it look good, a little wasting time by the HB wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

To each their own I guess, but I think the QB riding the belly fake from hip to hip is a must. That’s what makes the Belly sweep so deadly. Once those ends start over committing to stop the belly, belly sweep usually goes for big yards. When your wing is coming from the wing position it gives the QB and FB time to to really sell that fake, QB takes one more step to 6’oclock after the fake and the wing is there at the perfect time. We run Down sweep to our HB from from the traditional HB spot and it never seems to time up as well as belly sweep. I think when the defense sees both backs in the backfield diving into the weak side B gap they don’t expect another back coming around for a sweep because they don’t see him in the backfield at the start of the play. 

Then have you considered sending the end around?  Or even the tackle?

There must be some threat that can be preserved in the belly series with a back side HB while another player comes around from the back.


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Dusty Ol Fart
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February 23, 2020 8:50 pm  

For crying out loud Bob!  If I say I am a Wing T team and then I ask what about eliminating the Wing......I am absolutely, positively, no longer a Wing Team....I am something else!

I was a Wing Team who ran a Wishbone formation from time to time.  Yet, rest assured, we were a Wing -T Team!  

 

 

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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ZACH
 ZACH
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February 24, 2020 8:05 am  
Posted by: @coyote

Greetings

For those who are committed to a wing in their formation…  What are your best arguments for keeping the wing?

My HC has our team on his mind all year long, plots and plans, contingencies, loves to play the “What if…” game.   He particularly loves the Draft (one of the reasons we work so well together, he loves practically everything I dislike doing – and vice versa) and is already looking at who, what, when and etc. of this upcoming draft. 

He has a pretty a good idea every yr of who to draft and who to avoid and what the kids coming up from the PeeWees (2nd grade and under*) are like,  and his knowledge of the other coaches… He’s been very good at predicting who will be there when we draft.

He believes that  ( and we’re drafting last again)  based on what we’ll pick up and how Belly Weak was such a big play for us last season (HB Leads the FB) …. He's thinking full-house double Tight and running Belly weak to both sides.  No wing.   We won’t tip our strength that way.  

My response: Part of our success with Belly weak was due to teams over-playing our Wing side.   We can simply flip the formation (100 to 900) to get the same thing.  But he’s thinking we’ll likely pick up two HB’s who are OK runners but really good blockers = stronger blocking less play-making ability.  This to go with a potential stud FB who played WB last season (I really like this kid for FB).

But, I thought It’d be interesting to hear your thoughts on it. 

What are your best arguments for keeping the wing?

Thanx

 

*The league added the PeeWees 20+ ago, b/c of all the little brothers running around during practice and the parents finally demanded it.  It is – without question – the toughest job in coaching to work with that age group.  

 

Sooo, a wing Is a great utility...a wing is also an obvious key. I beleive you need to be more creative with just 1 wing then 2.  That being said,  a wing I'm relation to belly is only as good as the mesh of the series. A slot is more threatening to a youth defense imo than a wing even tho it's pretty much just an alignment difference. 

 

Employ the wing see what it does... My 8u team ran a barta style bone this past season and we basically ran belly series till the cows came home.  I've used this for 10yr n younger now for 3 seasons, mega ish splits (4ft) 

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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Coyote
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February 24, 2020 5:04 pm  

@gumby_in_co

Posted by: @gumby_in_co

WB might be my favorite position on offense. Here are some of my arguments for a WB from the perspective of a defensive coach:

Coach Gumby,  

Thanx, this is the kinda thing I was looking for....   I guess explaining the background that led up to the question was too much information.  Folk got lost in the context.  I'll try to be a bit more succinct in the future. 

 

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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Coyote
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February 24, 2020 5:19 pm  

Coaches

I appreciate your input.  FWIW, our "playbook" consists of 

Belly weak / sweep / counter / Waggle keep/ waggle pass
Belly Strong / sweep / counter / waggle keep / waggle pass
Buck trap / Buck short to strong side / Bucksweep (WB gets ball) to weak side / waggle / waggle pass / HB Option pass

Mostly we've run Belly weak, Belly strong, Buck short and Bucksweep w/ the WB to the weak side.  (we've had games where those were the only 4 plays we called).   Belly weak waggle pass - most seasons - seems to be our best pass.  Other seasons its been Buck waggle pass to the Deep crossing WB or TE whichever is the better receiver.

Obviously we can run our Offense from a variety of formations, but we usually pick a couple early and add a couple later and keep it simple for the little guys.  

We've talked about Jet sweep, which I've run elsewhere, but the teams that try it in our league don't seem to understand how to run it (I think they see it on TV w/out understanding how it really works) and we've decided not to run it b/c the HC doesn't want to have to defend it, if they watch us and figure it out.   

 

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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CoachDP
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February 24, 2020 8:42 pm  
Posted by: @coyote

We've talked about Jet sweep, which I've run elsewhere, but the teams that try it in our league don't seem to understand how to run it (I think they see it on TV w/out understanding how it really works) and we've decided not to run it b/c the HC doesn't want to have to defend it, if they watch us and figure it out.  

So let me get this straight.  You don't want to do something that may help your team, because you're concerned that other teams might improve by copying you?  

Perhaps I should just stop sharing information. 🤔 God forbid that one of my competitors reads this forum and improves themselves.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Coyote
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February 27, 2020 12:04 pm  
Posted by: @coachdp

So let me get this straight.  You don't want to do something that may help your team, because you're concerned that other teams might improve by copying you?  

More or less.   

When we're winning we don't show anything more than we have to.  As I mentioned above, many games we've only had to run 4 plays to win.  I.e. We don't show counters and such if we don't need them.  Don't run Belly sweep, either, unless we need to, we save them for when we need them, our ace up the sleeve.    Last 3 seasons we haven't needed the Jet sweep, so we haven't put it in.  We are purpose driven in our coaching, and we don't put stuff in just to put stuff in, there has to be a reason - a purpose for doing so.  Jet is good football!  But we haven't needed it, the day will come when we do, and that's when we'll add it.  Until then, the HC doesn't want to have to defend it. 

As for sharing... 

At the end of each season the league puts together an all-star team and plays in a couple rec-league level tournaments.  League winning coaches coach the All-star team, other coaches can assist if they like. Having won the league the last 3 seasons, we've coached the all-star team the last 3 seasons. 

Coaches from other teams are right there behind us, watching our Offensive install, our techniques - I've had 3 different OLine coaches over those yrs, "helping" me with the OLine - I'm sharing it all.   All we get in return is a lot of grousing.   And more irritating, back-stabbing.  

  • Our practices are not macho enough (not enough brain bashing "drills")
  • too much time spent in getting the timing down - it's too complicated
  • our offense is too one dimensional (while being too complicated)
  • worse of all, too few of the other Coaches & Board members sons end up starting at qb / rbs / se.   

 

We have shared and gotten little but grief for it, even gotten stabbed in the back by coaches telling their kids (Privately) not to do what we teach.   On the rare occasion when other coaches do ask about something, we're forthright in giving answers and drills and etc.  We don't deflect. Yet we're constantly being criticized ... 

  • What we do doesn't work (it doesn't work to the tune of 30-3 over last 3 seasons and 5 straight appearances in the championship game and 3 straight league titles)
  • we only win because we suck up all the talent (while drafting last every yr) but our talent is not good enough to start for the All-star team. 

 

We are hated and reviled - the NFL patriots of our league - one of the game officials is on record as saying he can't wait to see our team lose.  At the combine kids and most parents hope we draft their kid, but once drafted by other teams, we're the bad guys. 

One the coaches at the next level up has said he'd like to run the Wing T, build on what we do, drafting as many of our kids as he could, but the PR hit he would take wouldn't be worth being thought of as Cowboys 2.0.    (We're the Cowboys)

So, no, we see no reason to help the other teams in our league with the Jet unless they ask.  if they want nothing to do with what we do, so be it.  Sun doesn't shine on the same dog every day... sooner or later, we'll need to add the Jet, until then, we see no reason to give our knowledge of it away. 

Not bitter, simply giving the lay of the land.  And if any of our league competition show up here, they're welcome to anything with which I can help.

[BTW:  if we win the title again, I've already told the HC, they couldn't pay me to do the all-stars again.  HC responded that if he says yes to it, to punch him upside his head]. 

 

This post was modified 8 months ago 4 times by Coyote

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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CoachDP
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February 27, 2020 1:23 pm  

Posted by: @coyote

When we're winning we don't show anything more than we have to.  As I mentioned above, many games we've only had to run 4 plays to win.  I.e. We don't show counters and such if we don't need them.  Don't run Belly sweep, either, unless we need to, we save them for when we need them, our ace up the sleeve.

--You're saying that it's simply easier to fool opponents, instead of out-executing them.  "If I show this play, they'll learn how to defend it.  But if I never show it, I'v got an 'ace up the sleeve' that I can fool them with."  I honestly don't understand how you're willing to run anything if you're afraid someone would try to learn how to defend it.  And if you've been successful running whatever it is you run, then doesn't that tell you that you can run plays successfully despite the fact that your opponent has seen them?  Heck, Wedge is my favorite play.  And probably the easiest play in our arsenal to defend.  It's also the best play we run.

Last 3 seasons we haven't needed the Jet sweep, so we haven't put it in.

--I can't even wrap my head around what you just said...  I thought you're afraid of your opponents seeing you run it.

We are purpose driven in our coaching, and we don't put stuff in just to put stuff in, there has to be a reason - a purpose for doing so.  Jet is good football!  But we haven't needed it, the day will come when we do, and that's when we'll add it.  

--Honestly, that's one of the funniest things I've ever read on this forum.  You're not going to install it until you need it?  That's Goodman-esque.  (No offense, Bob.)

Until then, the HC doesn't want to have to defend it. 

--It's amazing the number of coaches out there who are simply afraid of their opponents.  Dave Cisar has a book and a practice plan that's available to every opponent.  I've never heard him say that he was afraid an opponent might read it.

As for sharing... 

At the end of each season the league puts together an all-star team and plays in a couple rec-league level tournaments.  League winning coaches coach the All-star team, other coaches can assist if they like. Having won the league the last 3 seasons, we've coached the all-star team the last 3 seasons. 

Coaches from other teams are right there behind us, watching our Offensive install, our techniques - I've had 3 different OLine coaches "helping" me with the OLine - I'm sharing it all.   All we get in return is a lot of grousing.   And more irritating, back-stabbing. 

--So if your opponents complain about what you do and how you do it, then what makes you think they want to run your Jet?

We have shared and gotten little but grief for it, even gotten stabbed in the back by coaches telling their kids (Privately) not to do what we teach.   On the rare occasion when other coaches do ask about something, we're forthright in giving answers and drills and etc.  We don't deflect. Yet we're constantly being criticized ... 

--Is this really a concern of yours?  Boo-hoo.   I'm not afraid if someone runs something we run, teaches something we teach, or thinks I'm an idiot for doing so.  It doesn't change a thing.  

  • What we do doesn't work (it doesn't work to the tune of 30-3 over last 3 seasons and 5 straight appearances in the championship game and 3 straight league titles)
  • we only win because we suck up all the talent (while drafting last every yr) but our talent is not good enough to start for the All-star team.  

 --So if you been that successful, it escapes me that you'd be afraid to show something, especially when your opponents have no interest in running what you do.

We are hated and reviled - the NFL patriots of our league - one of the game officials is on record as saying he can't wait to see our team lose.  At the combine kids and most parents hope we draft their kid, but once drafted by other teams, we're the bad guys. 

--And this is an issue for you?  When I coached youth ball, we won a few games here and there.  And what our opponents said or thought about us was at the bottom of my "I don't give a &@%$ list."

So, no, we see no reason to help the other teams in our league with the Jet unless they ask.

--I couldn't care less about whether you want to help an opponent.  But you're obviously afraid to, if you're so worried about installing/showing Jet because your opponents may run it.  My point is that I'm not afraid to help an opponent, because I couldn't care less if he gets better.  And yes, I've given clinics to opposing orgs, in season.  I learned a long time ago that it's the coach and players who wins games, not the scheme.  If you really know how to run Jet, you should certainly know how to stop it.

--Dave

 

 

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
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February 27, 2020 1:34 pm  
Posted by: @coyote

We've talked about Jet sweep, which I've run elsewhere, but the teams that try it in our league don't seem to understand how to run it (I think they see it on TV w/out understanding how it really works) and we've decided not to run it b/c the HC doesn't want to have to defend it, if they watch us and figure it out.   

If your opponents aren't figuring it out watching it on TV, learning it at clinics, or from reading books and watching videos about it, what makes you think they'll learn it watching you run it?

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Coyote
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February 27, 2020 5:53 pm  
Posted by: @coachdp

You're saying that it's simply easier to fool opponents, instead of out-executing them.

Hi Dave,

Nope.  There is a very un-even (if that's the word) level of coaching among our league opponents.  If the better teams don't have a scouting report on it, they'll not prep for it.  Less about foolin' 'em, more about keepin' it close to the vest. 

I.e., If the Outside Force / Contain kid(s) just sitting out there and the Belly is working, keep rolling w/ the belly, if he starts trying to help out on the Belly, surrendering force / contain, then we Belly sweep.  If we don't need it - b/c the Belly is working just fine - we don't run it.  Kinda invites the next team [whom I assume will be better] to think about crashing the outside guy(s), or switching a weaker kid out there to strengthen their Def. against our Belly.   Or, when the belly's working fine, we'll save the counter for the next team's fast flow LB's (if they have them).   We out-execute them with the Belly (or Buck which ever fits our kids best) and force them to adjust, and when they do, we got 'em.  If they don't - or their adjustments are not sufficient - we keep with what's working. 

Posted by: @coachdp

thought you're afraid of your opponents seeing you run it.

The HC doesn't want to have to defend a properly run Jet.  When the time comes we do need it, we'll add it, but until then, why? We're doing fine without it.   We can spend our time (only 2 practices/ week, 2 hrs / practice) on other things.  Like perfecting our Bellys &  Buck short which have been our bread and butter (much as I'd guess you emphasize wedge in your own arsenal).  We want folk to over-play our Belly & Buck short.  When they do, we'll use the complimentary plays.  If they don't, or still can't stop 'em, we'll just keep running 'em.   If its working why stop?

Posted by: @coachdp

then what makes you think they want to run your Jet?

Why take the chance?   Jet's a great play when run well.  They don't run it well.  When we run it well, they'll think we're copying them ... they don't like what we do, but the do want to Jet.

Posted by: @coachdp

whether you want to help an opponent.  But you're obviously afraid to,

I think you're missing the point and/or focusing on tangential matters.  It's not fear, we have and will continue to share when asked.  Our sharing has been resoundingly rebuffed (couple exceptions).  Rather than seeking our help to elevate their game, they seek to drag us down.  Cool, when they want our help, all they gotta do is ask

 

Posted by: @coachdp

Boo-hoo.

 LOL, its not fear, it's aggravation. Kick me enough times in the shin and I'll step back.   Frankly, after this last season, I've never been more motivated to hang 50 on people in life.  We won't (unless its with the Oline in the backfield racking up the scores) for their kids' sake.   But, many of them have made it personal.  

Posted by: @coachdp

what our opponents said or thought

It's not just us, tho.  It's my kids, too.  When they are in school (we a county wide league, 5 elementary's) and kids from other teams are talking trash, or their parents are talking trash, that bugs me.  We emphasize talking with our shoulder pads, and letting the scoreboard speak for us.  Again, motivates me to coach 'em up more than ever. 

Posted by: @coachdp

not the scheme.

That's the key to the Wing T, the versatility.  The Jimmys and Joes instead of the X's and O's.  We've had a great run, but everyone has a down yr here and there.  We'll place the emphasis on what the kids can do, avoid what they don't do well.  When the kids come along that call for the Jet, then we'll run it.  Recently, we've been blessed with Off-tackle kids. 

Back when I broke into football, I got to talk to the winningest coach in MI football and the 3rd winningest coach (Both from our area, and both since passed up since they'd retired back in the '80's)  The winningest coach used to say offensively, "If my fat boy moves your fat boy, the Running back's got 5 yards".  The 3rd winningest expressed the same attitude but defensively, he'd say, "If you can't run off-tackle you can't win".   For our level, I believe they are right.   We're running off-tackle until we can't, that's when the complimentary plays come.

 

Posted by: @coachdp

earning it at clinics, or from reading books and watching videos about it, what makes you think they'll learn it watching you run it

To my knowledge, we're the only ones who go to clinics and such. One of the reasons I'm here.  To learn how to run a play off the TV requires eye-discipline, and I don't see evidence that they've got it.

My pop used to say "There's nothing sadder than a man who doesn't know, and doesn't know that he doesn't know."  

We're coaching against a lot of those kinda guys.  I was out of the game for 10 yrs due to hip issues (got both hips replaced, which is why I;m back) either the game changed a lot while I was out and I've fallen behind them (and I;m the one who doesn't know), or, most the guys are drawing it up in the dirt (not literally).  I don't get the sense that they're doing their homework.  I don't get the sense than they're running a system.

[I think I mentioned earlier, the level of coaching isn't great in this league, we don't have to out run the bear, we just have to out run them.]  

But, there's a chance they may figure it out (and I would help 'em if they'd ask) when they are standing right there on the field (we're allowed 2 coaches on the field with the team) and seeing it time and time again.  They don't want anything to do with our offense, but some of them are trying to run Jet.

Thanx for the thoughts....  as iron sharpens iron, so one coach sharpens another.  

This post was modified 8 months ago 3 times by Coyote

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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gumby_in_co
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February 27, 2020 8:51 pm  

Maybe it's just us, but when we're in a position where we're the team to beat, we go the opposite direction. If we're dominant, we throw the kitchen sink at them. We install stuff just because we can. And yes, over the years, our habit of beating the snot out of teams running nothing but Beast has resulted in us having to defend a lot of Beast. If we're averaging 30-3 victories, it really doesn't matter what we run, much less what we have to defend.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Coyote
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February 28, 2020 12:13 pm  
Posted by: @gumby_in_co

If we're dominant, we throw the kitchen sink at them.

Hi Coach,

Some folk do that, we choose not to.  We don't run a play, just to run a play.  We try to have a reason for everything we do. We prefer to run a few plays great, than a whole lot of plays pretty well.  

We do want all our backs to get carries in every game, we do like to attack across a broad front, w/ some play-action in there to get our Ends involved...  Being purpose driven =  one season we added an End Around, for a kid who was a monster blocker at TE, but couldn't catch a cold in January if he were standing in Lake Michigan buck-naked.  He had straight line speed, tho, (couldn't cut to save his life) and might have been a pretty good HB, but we had an elite kid at HB.   So, we found a way to reward him a play that fit within our scheme.  But we put it in for a purpose. 

Posted by: @gumby_in_co

If we're averaging 30-3 victories, it really doesn't matter what we run, much less what we have to defend.

Someone on here said something to the effect, Offenses that work, work.   More than one way to skin that cat.  For us, having plays in the arsenal that the other team isn't prepped for, we see it as an advantage - esp. vs the better teams.    Go ahead, spend all practice prepping to stop our Belly,  good luck and if you can, once we know how you've adjusted, we'll hit the Belly counter or Belly sweep you which didn't prep to stop.  

Appreciate the thoughts

 

This post was modified 8 months ago 2 times by Coyote

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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