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Why I Love the WingT..Buck Sweep  

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Coach TonyM
(@ramoody)
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December 23, 2019 9:33 am  

This kid is average speed..but ran the play perfect.  When run right it is very very difficult to stop.


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Bob Goodman
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December 23, 2019 7:40 pm  

Very interesting, thanks.  A few observations:

Some strange looks by the defense, and sometimes the offense ran into their teeth but still did fairly well.

Just like my team this year, no reverse pivot by the QB.  Maybe that's the trend.

When the FB didn't get the ball, he mostly stood there and cleaned up whoever came thru from the defense.  This is something I thought of last month as something I want to propose to our chief O coach.

The trailing G wasn't usually able to get to the POA, but turned up as if trap were on and there was nobody to block there.  When there was somebody to block there, he served a cleanup role similar to the FB's.

Why's it labeled "Rugby"?  Was that the name of the opposing school?  The play doesn't look very rugby-like.


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Coach TonyM
(@ramoody)
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December 24, 2019 11:56 am  

Very interesting, thanks.  A few observations:

Some strange looks by the defense, and sometimes the offense ran into their teeth but still did fairly well.

Just like my team this year, no reverse pivot by the QB.  Maybe that's the trend.

When the FB didn't get the ball, he mostly stood there and cleaned up whoever came thru from the defense.  This is something I thought of last month as something I want to propose to our chief O coach.

The trailing G wasn't usually able to get to the POA, but turned up as if trap were on and there was nobody to block there.  When there was somebody to block there, he served a cleanup role similar to the FB's.

Why's it labeled "Rugby"?  Was that the name of the opposing school?  The play doesn't look very rugby-like.

Yes Rugby Middle School... no the fullback got fired for not faking trap.  QB reverse pivots every time?  Opens up away from the play


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MHcoach
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January 7, 2020 9:46 am  

Coach Tony

That's traditional Wing T, actually the way Coach Raymond taught it is find the Mid Line. We actually ran a lot of Buck Sweep this year from the gun. It was our best running play.

 

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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Bob Goodman
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January 11, 2020 9:07 pm  
Posted by: @ramoody

Very interesting, thanks.  A few observations:

Some strange looks by the defense, and sometimes the offense ran into their teeth but still did fairly well.

Just like my team this year, no reverse pivot by the QB.  Maybe that's the trend.

When the FB didn't get the ball, he mostly stood there and cleaned up whoever came thru from the defense.  This is something I thought of last month as something I want to propose to our chief O coach.

The trailing G wasn't usually able to get to the POA, but turned up as if trap were on and there was nobody to block there.  When there was somebody to block there, he served a cleanup role similar to the FB's.

Why's it labeled "Rugby"?  Was that the name of the opposing school?  The play doesn't look very rugby-like.

Yes Rugby Middle School... no the fullback got fired for not faking trap.  QB reverse pivots every time?  Opens up away from the play

Reverse pivot and opening away from the play are different things.  When we reverse pivoted a 20 (buck sweep) series, the QB turns first in the direction the sweeper's going to run, and then continues turning as he gains depth, so by the time he meets the FB and HB, he's done a 3/4 turn.  Then he's facing "away from the play" if you consider the sweep to be the base play of the series.  The FB dives on the back side, in relationship to the QB's line back from C, but practically speaking the FB's diving on the midline because the QB has pivoted off it.  Some would have the QB start backing up on his back side foot to gain more depth (forgot whether we did that), requiring the FB to bend around between him and the defense rather than having a clear midline path.

What I want to try is having the QB do the same 3/4 turn but more slowly, so the FB dives on the side of C the sweeper's going to.


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MHcoach
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January 12, 2020 7:58 am  

Bob

No No No!

Buck Sweep Right

QB will step with his left foot to the mid line

Buck Sweep Left

QB will step with his right foot to the mid line

Think of a Clock 12 is the stripe of the center's helmet 6 is directly opposite. The QB steps to 6 O'clock with the foot opposite the Sweep.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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Bob Goodman
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January 12, 2020 2:39 pm  
Posted by: @mhcoach

Bob

No No No!

Buck Sweep Right

QB will step with his left foot to the mid line

Buck Sweep Left

QB will step with his right foot to the mid line

Think of a Clock 12 is the stripe of the center's helmet 6 is directly opposite. The QB steps to 6 O'clock with the foot opposite the Sweep.

Joe

Which is what I wrote that some do, couldn't remember whether we did in 2017-18, which gets you more depth, but then assuming the QB's next step is with the foot on the side the sweeper is going to and includes the turnaround, then the QB is still on the midline and the FB has to bend around him.  The other ways of doing it, the FB has more or less a straight path thru the ball to the 4 or 6 hole, although has been pointed out he's really aiming for 5 (where the center was), because the QB has gotten off the midline.

(I'm using the sequential wing T hole numbering here, not the odd-even T system.)


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MHcoach
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January 13, 2020 8:01 am  

Bob

Please stop trying to change what you meant vs what you posted.

Wing T & very specifically Delaware Wing T is about being precise. The QB's footwork as per Coach Raymond is very simple but must be consistent. We can go over all aspects of the Buck Sweep as well as the variations, and believe me there are plenty. We just can't start from a place that isn't within what is the right way.

This season we ran Buck Sweep from the Gun. It was our most successful play. That didn't mean I just took what I knew about Buck Sweep & adapted it. Instead I researched how people who have been successful running it from the Gun did it. I found what fit our team & installed it. One game we ran it into the boundary 9 times in a row for the game winning drive.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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Coyote
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January 13, 2020 11:14 am  
Posted by: @mhcoach

Instead I researched how people who have been successful running it from the Gun did it. I found what fit our team & installed it. One game we ran it into the boundary 9 times in a row for the game winning drive.

Joe

Greetings

RE: research....   

I've never tired of learning more about the game and how to run it.  Love books and clinics.  Missed them when I was out of the game for several yrs.   You're bang on, on fitting to kids, Jimmys & Joes etc.  My love of the Wing-T is the versatility to adjust to the players and find the fits.  Our '18 team was very different from our '19 team, talent wise ('19 far less talent and very different athletically), but it was simple adjustment here and there, and we were off to the races.  '18 team Buck-short (set up and coached as an off-tackle play) was our bread and butter.  '19 team Belly weak was our money play.   Both yrs we found 100 - 900 formations to fit our kids best, but for different reasons, ('18 it worked better for our qb to be heavy 100;  '19 our HB was a thunderous blocker, but nothing special as a runner, so we ran belly behind him for days)   Our '17 team was a red-blue formation team, due to the talents that team had...  

RE: 9 times in a row... 

We have run the same play successfully as many as 14 times in a row, once drove from the -4yd line all the way to the +2yd running buck-short (Waggled on the 15th play and qb walked in, I was going to give it to our stud HB again, but he asked not to, said he was kinda tired...).  I keep tellin' folk, its not the play, its the execution!   Besides, DC's keep thinking you're about to run something else, and if they don't over compensate from the play, they'll do something to stop whatever they think your going to run instead and keep the play open.

Appreciate the thoughts,

 

This post was modified 7 months ago by Coyote

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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MHcoach
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January 13, 2020 12:55 pm  

@coyote

This was 8A HS football in Fl. Our opponent was playing 4-2-5 to the field. This made the FS be the Kick-Out man. I kept thinking they would change the front or the coverage, they never did. The headsets were buzzing as I kept calling it into the boundary.

My experience with the Wing T is a funny thing. In the early 80's I swore I would never run the Wing T. I was fortunate enough to visit Delaware a few times. Watching Coach Raymond draw a play or explain was magical. My first coaching job here in FL the HC insisted we run Wing T. We were very successful with it.

Over the last 20 years or so I have been a  Zone guy. Running Spread with several different variations. This season I took a job at a different school & basically we started from scratch. We simply didn't have the athletes to spread the field the way I am used to. We installed Buck Sweep with a backside Bubble. Of course we had variations, but the basic plan came from a HS in Louisiana. They are like 9 time State Championship winners. This allowed us to keep our basic Spread plays and have a way to get off tackle.

 

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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Bob Goodman
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January 13, 2020 1:38 pm  
Posted by: @mhcoach

Bob

Please stop trying to change what you meant vs what you posted.

Wing T & very specifically Delaware Wing T is about being precise. The QB's footwork as per Coach Raymond is very simple but must be consistent. We can go over all aspects of the Buck Sweep as well as the variations, and believe me there are plenty. We just can't start from a place that isn't within what is the right way.

Well, pardon me for not having an Arthur Murray template to show you the footwork I'm referring to.  (It would be a nice thing to have a palette of individual left and right footprints I could use in a graphics program, if anybody knows where some are.)

As to "the right way", all I know is the team I'm coaching on went from doing the buck sweep series one way in 2018 (with reverse pivot) to another way in 2019 (like that in the above video) because Newton (NJ) high school had changed how they were doing it, so now as far as I'm concerned all ways of doing it are open for discussion.  Obviously different people wouldn't be doing it different ways if there weren't tradeoffs.  What's gained here is lost there, and then it's a matter of how much you value what you gain versus what you lose.


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Coyote
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January 13, 2020 3:30 pm  

What's gained here is lost there, and then it's a matter of how much you value what you gain versus what you lose.

Good point.   I prefer to reverse pivot the QB on belly, but we'd had a qb who couldn't get the timing of the reverse pivot, so we just opened him to the hole.  Our problem then became his tendency to try to treat it like a dive, and the FB wasn't getting the ball deep enough.  We also lost the deception of the ball 'disappearing'.   Oddly enough, he didn't have trouble with the mid-line on the Buck action.   8 - 9 yr olds... never know what they're going to bring to the table.   

Precision, tho, seems to me, to be the name of the game.  Our big problem early in the season is getting the kids to take their skills and drills into the game with them, and playing with precision.   Should probably point out that with our 8 - 9 yr olds & only 4 hrs of practice / week, its pretty tough to manage getting more than 7 kids to grade out positively on any given play.   But, like the man said:
"We seek perfection, knowing that the human condition precludes achieving it, but in the pursuit of perfection we hope to catch excellence." 

 

 

 

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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MHcoach
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January 14, 2020 8:15 am  

@coyote

This is exactly why being precise on foot work is so important. On the Wing T reverse pivot many youth coaches find it easier to teach a "punch step" with the play side foot to spin off. I know this is how Coach Correa teaches it. This helps slower players at QB. Common wisdom would say it's slower, when actually it's quicker.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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Coyote
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January 14, 2020 12:25 pm  
Posted by: @mhcoach

many youth coaches find it easier to teach a "punch step" with the play side foot to spin off.

Interesting, I hadn't thought of the 'punch step'.  If the Qb was having trouble from a square stance, I'd have him off-set the pivot foot when he went under center.   My coaches complained we were tipping the play, [Roger Holmes:  We tip a lot of stuff, but we run a lot of stuff] but the opposition hadn't caught up to it, and w/ no phones available on our field, if they did, it was probably too late for me to notice.  For myself, I kept watch for D's to try to key that foot, in anticipation of running the counter when they did. 

Posted by: @mhcoach

Common wisdom would say it's slower, when actually it's quicker.

First time I heard someone say, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast" I thought he was nuts.  But, I've since learned what was meant.  Precision - eliminating wasted movement and getting to the mesh point on time is more important than I thought as a young coach.   FWIW, we find trying to run our Belly a little bit like a draw helps our over-all timing.     That slightly slower mesh goes a long way toward helping the QB get there, setting up the blocking and getting the HB to lead block, and sets up the Belly Sweep and Counter nicely.

 

This post was modified 7 months ago 2 times by Coyote

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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Dusty Ol Fart
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January 14, 2020 12:39 pm  

I would Emphasize that if one changes the intent of the design of ANY play it is no longer that play.

I suggest in this case, if you remove the reverse pivot, regardless or reason, you have changed the dynamic effect of the play.  This is especially true in a misdirection oriented Offense.  You cant "Bait the hook" if you don't have a Hook. 

 

  

 

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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