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Why I Love the WingT..Buck Sweep  

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Bob Goodman
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January 14, 2020 6:56 pm  

 FWIW, we find trying to run our Belly a little bit like a draw helps our over-all timing.     That slightly slower mesh goes a long way toward helping the QB get there, setting up the blocking and getting the HB to lead block, and sets up the Belly Sweep and Counter nicely.

Does the FB sidestep to get more "vertical" to the hole?


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Coyote
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January 15, 2020 4:31 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman

Does the FB sidestep to get more "vertical" to the hole?

Hi Bob

In our teaching, (we start with Double TE, per the HC's preference)

  • 1st step - Near side foot step w/ toes aiming at TE.   
  • 2nd step - Far side foot step w/ toes pointing at OT outside leg - Forming pocket...
  • 3rd step - (Near side foot) aiming for OT's inside leg - should be aligned vertically (more or less) outside foot of the OG's starting point - depending on length of stride - Mesh with QB, who will "ride" for a step, the 'ride helps set up the counter and the Belly Sweep. 
  • 4th step - should be aligned behind HB (Belly Weak) or nearly so behind WB (Belly Strong)

When we use a SE... 

  • 1st step to outside foot of OT, 
  • 2nd step to outside foot of OG

Hope this is helpful...

 

 

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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Bob Goodman
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January 15, 2020 5:13 pm  
Posted by: @coyote
Posted by: @bob-goodman

Does the FB sidestep to get more "vertical" to the hole?

Hi Bob

In our teaching, (we start with Double TE, per the HC's preference)

  • 1st step - Near side foot step w/ toes aiming at TE.   
  • 2nd step - Far side foot step w/ toes pointing at OT outside leg - Forming pocket...
  • 3rd step - (Near side foot) aiming for OT's inside leg - should be aligned vertically (more or less) outside foot of the OG's starting point - depending on length of stride - Mesh with QB, who will "ride" for a step, the 'ride helps set up the counter and the Belly Sweep. 
  • 4th step - should be aligned behind HB (Belly Weak) or nearly so behind WB (Belly Strong)

When we use a SE... 

  • 1st step to outside foot of OT, 
  • 2nd step to outside foot of OG

Hope this is helpful...

It might be.  Whatever I gather, I'd have to sell Coaches Lance and Dan on.

What part of the above is "a little like draw"?  If it were less like a draw, what instruction would change?  Would the FB's hips be less open to the QB for the mesh if it were less draw-like?

We had inconsistent execution of belly, and although it wasn't exactly clear whose fault it was, it seemed mostly to be the QB's failure to get enough of both depth and distance wide, with the FB aiming for where he thought the QB would be.  However, our "belly 2nd man" (belly sweep by the WB) was executed OK, because the WB could always see where the QB was by then.

How much of the effect of belly do you think you'd lose if you had the FB slant toward the hole immediately but more slowly, so he got the ball closer to where he started?


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Coyote
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January 16, 2020 10:18 am  
Posted by: @bob-goodman

What part of the above is "a little like draw"?

Hi Bob,

I guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been.  It's more the mentality of a draw, to slow the 1st couple steps a tad, and get a good fake.   The 'ride' is exaggerated, not coming to a full stop, but almost walking through it.  

This past season our TB (FB) wanted to show off his speed (His Daddy's influence) and frequently blew by the mesh point, then blamed the qb.  (We find with 3-4th graders the 'blame game' is common).  His Daddy was in his ear about blasting thru the hole full speed and such... the source of the problem (he hated our Offense, his kid didn't get the ball enough).  When we got 'em to think more in terms of a draw play, it helped.  Our emphasis was on "little bit like", 'slightly" a draw play.  Once he slowed down, the fake was getting better and that helped with the Belly sweep and counter. 

We frequently tell the kids one good fake = two good blocks.   That's not strictly true, but it implants an image that helps get the back into their roles, when they don't get the ball.    

Posted by: @bob-goodman

How much of the effect of belly do you think you'd lose if you had the FB slant toward the hole immediately but more slowly, so he got the ball closer to where he started?

One of the problems we have early in the season is the FB's body sometimes being slanted away from the qb, the hand off is less in the belly and more on side / ribs - which leads to potential fumbles (and the blame game).  We want it a bit more square, we tell the FB to make like 'Pac-man' (I need to change the reference, since kids aren't playing pac-man now) w/ his arms and 'engulf' the ball.  We want those LB's to become 'mesmerized'; eyes locked on the FB, this helps.  We beleive the ball will be seated better on the belly-button, than on the ribs.  So, the 3rd step is bringing his shoulders a bit more square to the LOS and giving a better seat for the ball.  It also squares his shoulders to the hole.  

I didn't explain thoroughly enough on the 1st two steps, they're fairly short steps, he gains less than a yard vertically by the 3rd step.  When bird dogging it, the QB's 3rd step and the FB's 3rd step should put them in the same place.  On a slant, it seems the FB is at the mesh point on the 2nd step, while the qb still needs that 3rd step to get there.  

I suppose we could ask the FB to just step (skip?) to the mesh point and stop with shoulder's squared, and actually make it a draw play, but then it be a draw, and the kid'd lose some momentum.  I'm thinking the difference between starting a race from the blocks, as opposed to a relay race having a rolling start.  I'm also thinking about the HB (Belly weak) lead block and the distance between them, getting too great. 

Good question, I'll let it percolate a bit. 

Thanx

 

This post was modified 6 months ago by Coyote

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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Bob Goodman
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January 16, 2020 11:23 am  

I'm asking all this in the context of what I posted previously here.  It's actually the trap of the buck sweep series that would then be run more like a draw, because with the FB starting farther forward, the trap blocking would need more time to develop.

Coyote, you've said previously that you wanted the QB to be emerging from his reverse turn on belly at 45 degrees or more to the line.  Wouldn't that be enough to be meeting the FB at right angles and have the FB's hips open to the QB enough to get the ball solidly in there if the FB's path was straight to the hole?  Then the only problem would be the FB's need to moderate his speed to that mesh point.


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Coyote
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January 16, 2020 4:19 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman

ouldn't that be enough to be meeting the FB at right angles and have the FB's hips open to the QB enough to get the ball solidly in there if the FB's path was straight to the hole?  Then the only problem would be the FB's need to moderate his speed to that mesh point.

Hi Bob,

It hasn't worked out that way for us, I see where your coming from here, two 45's making a 90.   But we end up with the ball more on FB's ribs than his belly.   Could be a function  of being 8-9 yr olds(?).  

Re: Straight to the hole... w/ the TE, we're more C gap, to the SE we're more B gap.  For us, in either case, we want the FB rounding in toward the Hole, seems to help the over-all mesh & ride, square the shoulders to the LOS, and get the FB in more proper alignment with a lead back.   Its in our practices that this comes out, than in games.   Tho, having said that, when I watch the kids on film, we don't grade out as well as I'd like on these things, so, its more the ideal of perfection we're chasing, hoping to catch excellence, or some days just mediocrity.  

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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Bob Goodman
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January 17, 2020 2:47 pm  
Posted by: @coyote
Posted by: @bob-goodman

Wouldn't that be enough to be meeting the FB at right angles and have the FB's hips open to the QB enough to get the ball solidly in there if the FB's path was straight to the hole?  Then the only problem would be the FB's need to moderate his speed to that mesh point.

Hi Bob,

It hasn't worked out that way for us, I see where your coming from here, two 45's making a 90.   But we end up with the ball more on FB's ribs than his belly.   Could be a function  of being 8-9 yr olds(?).

That's partly a function of the ball's being relatively larger the smaller the players are.  They make juvenile footballs, but they're never reduced from regulation adult size in true proportion to average kid size.  Considering there's hardly any kicking game for 8 YOs, I wish they would.

But there's an advantage to the ball exchange's occurring more laterally on the body, and that's that it allows greater deception.  My ideal type of ball exchange after a reverse pivot would have the ball subtly slipped on the hip of one player to the other player's hip as they brush hips and face in the same direction.  I've practically never seen that with the players I've coached, but it was the ideal I wanted to strive for when I was in charge.  It's not compatible with "high and tight", though, although the recipient may get a chance to transfer it there downfield.

In the offense I was installing in 2015 (sidesaddle T, which is single wing with Chinese wing T characteristics), the "quarterback cycle" had a quick succession of 3 different possible handoffs, each a different style.  The first, for a FB dive, had them meet at right angles for a very conventional near-elbow handoff, and the fake was a mere "proximity" fake.  Second was for the fly or jet run by the WB, and was a reach-take that the QB was hardly to cooperate in; my instruction was for the WB to "steal" the ball from the QB, but what I've seen is that unless you really stress this, the kids wind up doing a conventional handoff here.  Third was for belly, which in my system was a HB carry after a counter "skate" step to bring him to the midline and back, and the handoff was to be as describe in the paragraph above, with the QB threatening to keep and hit the B gap.  But we actually never got to install belly, the time instead going to an I formation package the HC insisted on.


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Coyote
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January 20, 2020 5:23 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman

I've practically never seen that with the players I've coached, but it was the ideal I wanted

Hi Bob,

Same here.   There's the ideal we coach for, strive for and seek to instill, and then there is the reality we live with...   yet, we continue to work, to over come reality and to achieve perfection.  

Had a little time this past weekend to look at some of last season's film...   I wonder sometimes how we ever gained an inch.   Fortunately, the other coaches are coaching the same age group we are, and having even more problems than we are.   

Sometimes I think ... for us, and I hope this doesn't come across as hubris ...  we're kinda like the 2 hikers who met a bear on the trail, one starts to change into running shoes, the other says, 'you can't out run a bear."   the other guy says, "I don't have to, I just have to out-run you."     Some days it feels like all I'm doing is out running the other coaches, not the bear.    Still, some day I hope to bring home the bear skin - which for me, would be having all 11 kids grade out as a plus on the same play.  To see perfect execution.  

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


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Bob Goodman
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January 21, 2020 12:10 pm  
Posted by: @coyote

Sometimes I think ... for us, and I hope this doesn't come across as hubris ...  we're kinda like the 2 hikers who met a bear on the trail, one starts to change into running shoes, the other says, 'you can't out run a bear."   the other guy says, "I don't have to, I just have to out-run you."     Some days it feels like all I'm doing is out running the other coaches, not the bear.

I first experienced that when I was fairly new to coaching.  I started in 2007 with a really bad JPW team in a bad (but improving) organization, and we got slaughtered by everyone until we disbanded that team.  2008 I started to coach a nascent team affiliated with an adult club, they had trouble recruiting PeeWees, and they ditched me before they assembled enough to play games in October.  2009 I took off from coaching, but 2010 joined a very well established organization and started coaching a JPW team in it.

I kept seeing everything technically wrong on that 2010 team going into our pre-season scrimmage, and thought our performance would be awful.  But we killed in that scrimmage and went on to slaughter everybody the whole season, and I realized I'd been forecasting against the wrong standard.  I still thought our form stank, and would still try to coach up to the ideal in my head, but came to realize everyone else was so far from perfection as well that that measuring stick was not a predictor of W-L.  I still don't have that good an idea of who's going to be farther from the bear until I see us play.

I've been with my current team and club since 2017, but I wasn't impressed with how geometry-critical wing T was until late in the 2018 season when I was watching from behind our offense drill "live" against a partial D.  Coaching the lines, I'd noticed earlier in the season a problem our LG had keeping his proper split to the C, thought we'd fixed that.  But in this drill our staff was vexed that our counter play to that side was getting stuffed.  I caught the problem: Our LG would start to line up with our prescribed split, fingers to elbows both ways with arms out, but as the C stepped forward to take his stance, our LG moved his right foot sideways as he went into 3-point, closing that split to about half what it started out as.  I could not have seen that except from where I was standing that night.  When that was corrected, the play worked.  (Another lesson was that some players have something "learned" when you're watching them, and slip into their bad habits when you don't have a good sight line to them.  But I'd already seen that in C-QB exchanges.)

I would not have guessed that small a difference would matter, but the effect was dramatic.  Mind you, I'd still call BS on those coaches I read who claimed to distinguish between 1", 2", and 3" splits, because nobody can see inches.  But now I see that a difference of what may have been 9" can give reproducibly different results.


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