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What do you like better and why Veer or Wishbone?  

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ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
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Joined: 10 years ago
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June 14, 2017 6:39 am  

If youre going to look at sbv for youth look up "whacker sbv"
His book had a great number of read and called option ...and a good amount of non option plays to use.  We used osv as double read..isv was called...load option was a read...rest was belly, trap, power i lf i remember

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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Jtatham
(@jtatham)
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June 23, 2017 6:33 am  

If youre going to look at sbv for youth look up "whacker sbv"
His book had a great number of read and called option ...and a good amount of non option plays to use.  We used osv as double read..isv was called...load option was a read...rest was belly, trap, power i lf i remember

Took your advise and bought the book! I really like it. Some of it is a little difficult to digest at first glance, like the huge section on different blocking rules and the section on what he calls "crazy option". I haven't came across much called option stuff, other than dive and double option. So a called dive is "dive", fake dive double option is "option" and true triple is "veer". He has some interesting 3-back stuff where the 3rd back lines up as "up back" right directly behind the guard almost like a single wing blocking back. Interesting stuff though.


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Jtatham
(@jtatham)
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June 23, 2017 6:37 am  

His approach of outside veer as the base play instead of inside veer is something we are actually looking at doing (was before I got the book, already what the header wanted to do). We see almost all 5-3 defenses with 0, two 4s, and two 9s which makes ISV kind of tough but is prime for OSV. I'm going to talk to HC about going to ISV (dive at least) if teams move to a 5 to take the dive.


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ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
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June 23, 2017 8:00 am  

His approach of outside veer as the base play instead of inside veer is something we are actually looking at doing (was before I got the book, already what the header wanted to do). We see almost all 5-3 defenses with 0, two 4s, and two 9s which makes ISV kind of tough but is prime for OSV. I'm going to talk to HC about going to ISV (dive at least) if teams move to a 5 to take the dive.

He talks about double reads some where in there ... the blocking rules needs to be restructured as theyre a concept not rule based. I ended up using wedge scheme which is stupid easy for sbv.  Also the 3rd back stuff is short t based... never used but wanted to

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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JrTitan
(@jrtitan)
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June 23, 2017 4:48 pm  

His approach of outside veer as the base play instead of inside veer is something we are actually looking at doing (was before I got the book, already what the header wanted to do). We see almost all 5-3 defenses with 0, two 4s, and two 9s which makes ISV kind of tough but is prime for OSV. I'm going to talk to HC about going to ISV (dive at least) if teams move to a 5 to take the dive.

OSV was our base play.  We only ran ISV to the open side.  ISV to hard to run to TE side at this age. 

"They call it coaching but it is teaching...You do not just tell them...you show them the reasons""You have to be smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enough to think it's important."“…you have no bad habits to break...We either coach it or are allowing allowing it to happen.”


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Test Account
(@test-account)
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June 24, 2017 2:20 am  

the wacker book was the first real football book I was really ever exposed to. Now, I was 11, 12, years old, so who knows.

Please don't PM or respond to this Member. It is an account for all of the posts from abandoned or banned Member Accounts.


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bignose
(@bignose)
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Joined: 9 years ago
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June 24, 2017 5:04 am  

In addition to the Wacker book, let me recommend Steve Axman's book: Attacking Modern Defense with the Multiple-Formation Veer Offense.
BookFinder.com lists used copies fora little over $20.00.

And for free: google Twin Veer Offense. You'll find a 1979 Arkansas playbook listed that is a free downloadable pdf. format copy of Lou Holtz's Veer manual, the best technical manual available.

We started emphasizing the OSV as the base play around 1983, as we were more limited at QB, and the ISV wasn't getting us the results we needed. OSV was an easier install, and almost always at least got us back to the LOS. We seldom pitched on this, but since we also ran ISV and Counter Option, teams had to assign a defender to the pitch. For all intents and purposes, it was a double option Give or Keep. Lowered the risk on the play. If we wanted to pitch the ball, we'd call a Speed Option.

You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles!


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Jtatham
(@jtatham)
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July 10, 2017 4:41 am  

OSV was our base play.  We only ran ISV to the open side.  ISV to hard to run to TE side at this age.

Please remind me why ISV is hard to run to the TE side. You mean out of a pro formation?


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bignose
(@bignose)
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July 10, 2017 5:03 am  

Please remind me why ISV is hard to run to the TE side. You mean out of a pro formation?

From a Pro or Twins set, most defenses will shade to the TE and present a one tech sitting in the A gap who is difficult to block unless the guard doubles down on him with the Center.

Then there are still two sequential unblocked defenders along the LOS, the defense can run a Pitch-Scrape stunt with the DT and the DE while fast flowing the ILB outside forcing a very hasty pitch. It greatly increases the risks of a fumble on the play.

You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles!


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blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
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July 10, 2017 9:10 am  

From a Pro or Twins set, most defenses will shade to the TE and present a one tech sitting in the A gap who is difficult to block unless the guard doubles down on him with the Center.

Then there are still two sequential unblocked defenders along the LOS, the defense can run a Pitch-Scrape stunt with the DT and the DE while fast flowing the ILB outside forcing a very hasty pitch. It greatly increases the risks of a fumble on the play.

This is very true, but if you can get your QB to pull and quickly leverage pitch (or just call a fast pitch) and you get the blocks, that pitch should go for miles.  Downblock that 1, veer or loop the T to the ILB, arc the TE to Near Deep Defender (usually CB in Cov. 3), and have the flanker block #3 in the veer count.  The defense has no one outside with leverage on the pitch.  That is asking a lot of a youth QB to make that pitch, though.  You're probably just better off simply telling him to pitch the ball.

Personally, I liked running ISV at a 1 or 2i tech when I coached option.  You can cut the G's split down if he's having a hard time down blocking that 1 tech, but it doesn't take a whole lot to just wall him off with the G long enough for the play to get past him.    With a wide enough split by the T, the dive can still hit and break big even with a 4 or 5 tech crashing down on it.  QB Follow off the ISV action is also excellent against that look.

A lot of old school SBV teams only ran ISV to an open side and OSV to the TE side, then they'd work hard to formation teams into giving up one or the other by playing with the alignment of the TE and WRs or even motioning a back out and using the other for double options.


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bignose
(@bignose)
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July 10, 2017 11:58 am  

That is asking a lot of a youth QB to make that pitch, though.  You're probably just better off simply telling him to pitch the ball.

With a wide enough split by the T, the dive can still hit and break big even with a 4 or 5 tech crashing down on it.  QB Follow off the ISV action is also excellent against that look.

A lot of old school SBV teams only ran ISV to an open side and OSV to the TE side, then they'd work hard to formation teams into giving up one or the other by playing with the alignment of the TE and WRs or even motioning a back out and using the other for double options.

Agreed. Dumping the pitch is a good way for the average QB to pitch the ball into the ground. We defend the ISV by turning the play into a high risk sweep and running it down. Too often the QB would guess and pitch  so fast that the runner could never get leverage, as the defenders may be blocked, but for how long?

Many moons ago we played a Split Back Veer team, and the first time they pitched the ball it went for 45 yards, however every subsequent pitch lost yardage.
If I wanted to get the ball pitched, there are better ways than trying it thru a Triple Option. A Speed option is one alternative.

While one can run a predetermined dive / give with Veer blocking versus a wide 5 technique, it is still a bit of a crap shoot. Goes great if the tackle opens up a 4 foot plus split and the defender moves out with him. Even a hard pinch will often result in an arm tackle on a dive man.

You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles!


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