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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
Platinum
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 4146
September 21, 2018 9:00 am  

Our Saturday game just got moved to Sunday due to a shortage of officials. Apparently, 7 crews (not refs, crews) have quit since the season started. In 240 games (give or take), there have been 27 ejections. That's just over 10%. I can't remember the quoted stat, but the police have been called a bunch this season. Refs have been threatened, surrounded in parking lots, etc. I scouted a game last week where a dad got ejected and threatened the ref on the way out. I had the field monitor call the cops when the dad was lurking as the game was finishing up.

Mahonz told me that a scathing email went out from the League guy to all the club reps. They were told to "do something about it" and warned about Sunday games as a result of shrinking ref pools.

To me, this move smacks of punishment. If that's the case, I don't think the "punish the team for one kid jumping offside" approach works across 120 teams. It reminds me of a manager I used to work for who called a team meeting to tell everyone "we have a real problem with lack of accountability on this team". I told him, "Yeah, I think you just identified it." Telling the whole team we have a problem when it's one or two people who are screwing up.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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GP
 GP
(@gpenn44)
Gold
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1670
September 21, 2018 9:13 am  

I don't think the "punish the team for one kid jumping offside" approach works across 120 teams. It reminds me of a manager I used to work for who called a team meeting to tell everyone "we have a real problem with lack of accountability on this team". I told him, "Yeah, I think you just identified it." Telling the whole team we have a problem when it's one or two people who are screwing up.

In fairness, you're not the guy trying to manage 120 teams. Also you stated there have been 27 ejections in 240 games, 7 crews quit, threats, surrounded in parking lot, police called. That doesn't sound like "one or two people who are screwing up" so based simply on what you said, don't fault "League guy" for approaching that way.

"Motivation is simple. You eliminate those who are not motivated." - Lou Holtz


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
Platinum
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 4146
September 21, 2018 9:26 am  

In fairness, you're not the guy trying to manage 120 teams. Also you stated there have been 27 ejections in 240 games, 7 crews quit, threats, surrounded in parking lot, police called. That doesn't sound like "one or two people who are screwing up" so based simply on what you said, don't fault "League guy" for approaching that way.

I'll fault him because what he's doing is ineffective. Last season was bad, so their solution was a "fan line" about 10 yards from the sideline. Our club invested ($$$) in ropes to separate the crowd from the sideline. That clearly didn't work. So now, my well-behaved 2nd grade team gets to play on Sunday to answer for the behavior of 27 idiots. That is not "managing 120 teams". Far from it.  I guess my question to him would be what anyone on my team can do to fix the situation? Not misbehave in a game? Done. We did that for 3 games and about 5 scrimmages, yet, 27 people (coaches, I guess?) were ejected. What else can we do? In the meantime, keep punishing our 2nd graders and their parents.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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PSLCOACHROB
(@pslcoachrob)
Kryptonite
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 12408
September 21, 2018 9:39 am  

Pop Warner pretty much has a zero tolerance policy. When enforced it works. When it isn't it becomes hard to coach and have a game day. Parents act up and they are banned for a year. Kid can still play but the parent is done. I think in 9 years at PSL we had to do it twice to PSL parents. We did escort out some visiting parents who came from the 3 or 4 teams who allow that crap. In my 2 years at another team it wasn't enforced and it got scary sometimes. They could of easily thrown out 20-30 people every game day. Refs often had to be escorted out by police. At PSL, cops were never needed. At the other place there was a strong police presence. If you don't enforce rules then you don't have rules.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 22973
September 21, 2018 9:57 am  

I'll fault him because what he's doing is ineffective. Last season was bad, so their solution was a "fan line" about 10 yards from the sideline. Our club invested ($$$) in ropes to separate the crowd from the sideline. That clearly didn't work. So now, my well-behaved 2nd grade team gets to play on Sunday to answer for the behavior of 27 idiots. That is not "managing 120 teams". Far from it.  I guess my question to him would be what anyone on my team can do to fix the situation? Not misbehave in a game? Done. We did that for 3 games and about 5 scrimmages, yet, 27 people (coaches, I guess?) were ejected. What else can we do? In the meantime, keep punishing our 2nd graders and their parents.

I can only remember playing a Sunday game twice...once due to weather and one championship game when they used to play all of them at the same facility.

This is a VERY unusual move for our League.  Are they punishing us for this problem....yes. All they have to do is look at our H&I reports to know that we know how to act so why move our game last minute. That said....maybe our opponent has had issues?

What is odd for me.....I only hear about all these terrible issues but have yet to witness one during one of our games. I've seen a few opposing coaches "loose it" but never to the point they get ejected or the police show up.

I would like to know which Areas are getting dinged or if it is a League wide issue. Some Areas are notorious for causing trouble.

That said....all League issues IMHO are indeed self inflicted. Get / train better Crews and the problems subside.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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COCoachKC
(@cocoachkc)
Bronze
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 352
Colorado
Retired
September 21, 2018 10:00 am  

Lar,

Thanks for posting!  Just when I start to get that itch, someone posts something like this to remind me why I retired a few years ago.  I really don't think the itch will return after reading your post.

Adults ruining the game.  :'(

Kent


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 22973
September 21, 2018 10:08 am  

Lar,

Thanks for posting!  Just when I start to get that itch, someone posts something like this to remind me why I retired a few years ago.  I really don't think the itch will return after reading your post.

Adults ruining the game.  :'(

Kent

I was figuring that itch was a full blown rash by now!

Hope all is well old friend.  🙂

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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coachmiket
(@coachmiket)
Gold
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1371
September 21, 2018 10:19 am  

Number of referees declines drastically so the scheduler has to spread the games out over a wider time range so there can be refs at all games.

Your team got their game moved because of this. You view it as punishment.

Did you want the scheduler to call you and every other team to ask if they would be ok playing Sunday?  And then end up having to schedule teams on Sunday that said no anyway?  I'm sure you're not the only well behaved team that is getting "punished" and having their game moved to Sunday.  It's better than having your game outright cancelled, right?

Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Sometimes admins are in tough spots with these parent issues and try to fight it in a more passive manner (fan line) hoping that it sends enough of a message. 


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DREagle
(@coyouthcoach)
Silver
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 897
September 21, 2018 10:26 am  

I'm in the same league.

It's a top down issue for associations.  There are certain fields/areas that NEVER have a field monitor.  Coaches do not set expectations for their families and do not control their sidelines.

I was the field monitor at one of our fields last week.  Before each game I told each head coach that they were responsible for their sideline, if ANYONE but the head coach addresses the officials they will be removed from our facility. If I remove a fan I start a 3 minute timer, if that fan is still on the premises when the alarm sounds their team forfeits.  We had one parent start in on the refs, the ref called me over and identified the fan.  I walked over to the head coach, told him who it was and started my timer. The other parents ran him off of the field.

This is a stupid problem to have.  I blame the area directors and head coaches.

Of course the refs are going to suck (sorry refs, it's true), if they were awesome they would be reffing at a higher level.  They aren't out to get anyone and they aren't trying to win the game for one team or the other. There are going to be bad calls that are unfair and are likely complete crap.  We, as the adults, can allow our children to deal with that perceived unfairness and adversity by persevering and overcoming or we can model behavior that shows them that temper tantrums, name calling and physical threats are the best way to deal with things when you think you've been wronged.  Yes, some of the parents are idiots, but if the associations and coaches didn't tolerate their BS we wouldn't have this issue.

/rant


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 22973
September 21, 2018 10:32 am  

Number of referees declines drastically so the scheduler has to spread the games out over a wider time range so there can be refs at all games.

Your team got their game moved because of this. You view it as punishment.

Did you want the scheduler to call you and every other team to ask if they would be ok playing Sunday?  And then end up having to schedule teams on Sunday that said no anyway?  I'm sure you're not the only well behaved team that is getting "punished" and having their game moved to Sunday.  It's better than having your game outright cancelled, right?

Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Sometimes admins are in tough spots with these parent issues and try to fight it in a more passive manner (fan line) hoping that it sends enough of a message.

Our Org has the most beautiful fully lit multi field facility in the League.

I would prefer to play on Monday night.

Im not sure if we have any Mormons on our team but I am about to find out. This places undo stress on the families and violates our By-Laws. No Sunday participation unless an act of God like weather forces the situation.

Thankfully the Broncos are on the road or we would be battling that as well for those that have tickets. Its why I have not practiced on a Monday in 20 seasons. MNF trumps all when the Broncos play. 

Here is the real issue. Our League has not played any regular season games in stadiums in 50 years. We play in sports parks. Our fans are 9 feet behind our bench. So now you have 200 or so people on your own sideline....literally. Add to that it is every Fans Football God given right to complain about Refs. In our atmosphere the Refs hear everything. By now you'd think our League would have figured out how to deal with this.

They have not.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
Platinum
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 4146
September 21, 2018 10:52 am  

Your team got their game moved because of this. You view it as punishment.

That's how I initially viewed it, but I'm suspecting that it's a "necessity" thing.

Our league is big on sweeping punitive measures. It's looking like that might not be the case here.

Let's go to what led to the cops being called to the game I was scouting Saturday.

Visiting team scored on a KR, but there was a blatant blindside hit that was called. Visitor mom is very vocal about the call. Ref throws a flag. Visitor dad (not related to mom) goes off so ref throws another flag. Ball is backed up to to visitors' 5 yard line. Play is about to resume, when the ref calls to the vistitors' on field coach. "Coach, that needs to leave or you will forfeit." (pointing to visitor dad)

Play is halted while 4 visitor coaches confront the dad who is now raging on the sideline. He backs up about 40 yards (parking lot is on the other side of the field) and fumes. Ref insists that the guy leaves before play resumes. The dad, still fuming saunters across the back of the endzone, taking his time to leave, all the while pointing at the black hat and nodding his head. His body language and demeanor is threatening. Many parents and coaches are imploring the guy to hurry up and leave so play can continue.

Toward the end of the game, I noticed the dad halfway between the parking lot and the corner of the end zone, hiding behind the corner of a fence. Whenever a play is run, he would run out about 20 yards to watch, then run back to his hiding spot. I alerted the field monitor and asked if he wanted me to call the sheriff, but he said he would do it. Field monitor drove his golf cart near the guy and noted that the dad had discarded his flip flops at his hiding spot and made his way to the visitors' sideline. Field monitor interpreted this as the guy wanting to fight unencumbered by flip flops. Cops came and talked to him for about 30 minutes. They were going to cite him, but apparently the ref had already left and they needed his statement, so no charges were issued.

So what action or policy could have prevented this? One idiot who ran his mouth and then decided that he wanted to fight because he was ejected from his 7 year old son's football game.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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DREagle
(@coyouthcoach)
Silver
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 897
September 21, 2018 11:00 am  

That's how I initially viewed it, but I'm suspecting that it's a "necessity" thing.

Our league is big on sweeping punitive measures. It's looking like that might not be the case here.

Let's go to what led to the cops being called to the game I was scouting Saturday.

Visiting team scored on a KR, but there was a blatant blindside hit that was called. Visitor mom is very vocal about the call. Ref throws a flag. Visitor dad (not related to mom) goes off so ref throws another flag. Ball is backed up to to visitors' 5 yard line. Play is about to resume, when the ref calls to the vistitors' on field coach. "Coach, that needs to leave or you will forfeit." (pointing to visitor dad)

Play is halted while 4 visitor coaches confront the dad who is now raging on the sideline. He backs up about 40 yards (parking lot is on the other side of the field) and fumes. Ref insists that the guy leaves before play resumes. The dad, still fuming saunters across the back of the endzone, taking his time to leave, all the while pointing at the black hat and nodding his head. His body language and demeanor is threatening. Many parents and coaches are imploring the guy to hurry up and leave so play can continue.

Toward the end of the game, I noticed the dad halfway between the parking lot and the corner of the end zone, hiding behind the corner of a fence. Whenever a play is run, he would run out about 20 yards to watch, then run back to his hiding spot. I alerted the field monitor and asked if he wanted me to call the sheriff, but he said he would do it. Field monitor drove his golf cart near the guy and noted that the dad had discarded his flip flops at his hiding spot and made his way to the visitors' sideline. Field monitor interpreted this as the guy wanting to fight unencumbered by flip flops. Cops came and talked to him for about 30 minutes. They were going to cite him, but apparently the ref had already left and they needed his statement, so no charges were issued.

So what action or policy could have prevented this? One idiot who ran his mouth and then decided that he wanted to fight because he was ejected from his 7 year old son's football game.

Well I'm a jerk but if that's a dad in my association he is getting written notice that his child will not play another snap this season if the dad is at the facility.  He's done.  Everyone in the league signed a conduct form, we either start enforcing it or it's just going to continue to snowball.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
Platinum
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 4146
September 21, 2018 11:02 am  

I'm in the same league.

It's a top down issue for associations.  There are certain fields/areas that NEVER have a field monitor.  Coaches do not set expectations for their families and do not control their sidelines.

Dave,

I was at Schaeffer in my incident. Their field monitors drive around in big golf carts and are very visible. He actually called the cops for the preceding game. I'm going to go ahead and call them out. It was Alameda. They seem to get the early games and they really set the tone for BS. You've been around Jeffco, so you know what I'm talking about.

I was the field monitor at one of our fields last week.  Before each game I told each head coach that they were responsible for their sideline, if ANYONE but the head coach addresses the officials they will be removed from our facility. If I remove a fan I start a 3 minute timer, if that fan is still on the premises when the alarm sounds their team forfeits.  We had one parent start in on the refs, the ref called me over and identified the fan.  I walked over to the head coach, told him who it was and started my timer. The other parents ran him off of the field.

If we can get this type of response at every game, the problem will go away very quickly.

This is a stupid problem to have.  I blame the area directors and head coaches.

More the HCs for me. Less the area directors.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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DREagle
(@coyouthcoach)
Silver
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 897
September 21, 2018 11:06 am  

Yep, it's almost always the same associations.  Those are also the associations that typically don't even bother with field monitors at their facilities.

And I agree that the HC's are more to blame.  Association directors can't be at every game. HC's feel like they already have enough nonsense to deal with so they don't want to deal with parent behavior issues. In some cases they are likely scared to because some of these people are just plain nuts.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 22973
September 21, 2018 11:08 am  

Well I'm a jerk but if that's a dad in my association he is getting written notice that his child will not play another snap this season if the dad is at the facility.  He's done.  Everyone in the league signed a conduct form, we either start enforcing it or it's just going to continue to snowball.

Funny story...

Back when I was a Board Member and witnessed the ugliness that is youth sports we banned a Dad for submitting false paperwork not once but 3 times....getting busted each time and then Org hopping to avoid banishment. He came to us from BC already tagged so it was an easy bust for us once he did it again. 

He showed up to his sons games dressed as a woman. Worked for about half the season too.  😛

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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