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Navy football Adds run and shoot  

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ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
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August 14, 2019 6:17 am  

Article: https://navy.rivals.com/news/introducing-the-run-and-shoot

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


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CoachSugg
(@coachsugg)
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August 14, 2019 6:25 am  

Interesting article.  Pretty well researched and presented, especially to the generic reader not as familiar with football formations and schemes.

Kent Sugg
Bridge Creek, OK


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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North Carolina
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August 14, 2019 8:09 am  

From the article:

"Navy has always employed the same philosophy. The offensive line doesn’t form a pocket on the Mids' pass plays. The tackles don’t take a giant step backward with their outside foot on the snap. Instead, their first step is forward, just as it would be on a running play. It makes sense if you think about it; how much time do you want to spend on an entirely different blocking technique for passing plays when you run the ball 85 percent of the time? The learning curve for the offensive linemen isn’t as steep in the Run and Shoot as it would be with other passing philosophies."

This has been my approach forever.  We don't teach pass blocking.  On the playside, we do just what we do on the run block, except that we don't take it down-field.  On the backside, we hinge, which starts exactly as our pull steps on Power.  In this way, our offensive line is never a tell as to whether we're running or passing.  Our hats are at the same height on either play.  Our down-hand pressure is the same amount on either play.  We don't have to teach a new or differing technique. 

It goes back to my days as a youth header when I'd see coaches teaching a 3-point stance to their offensive linemen and a 4-point stance to those same players when on defense.  When I'd ask the coach, "Wouldn't it be better to rep one stance 100% of the time, instead of 50% on one and 50% on the other?  Besides, you now have some guys in a 4-point stance on offense, and a 3-point stance on defense.  Then you have to spend additional time correcting that."  They'd retort, "If you knew anything about football, you'd know that offensive linemen are in a 3-point stance and defensive linemen are in a 4-point stance."  Then I'd reply, "Not on my team."

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
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August 14, 2019 9:40 am  

It goes back to my days as a youth header when I'd see coaches teaching a 3-point stance to their offensive linemen and a 4-point stance to those same players when on defense.  When I'd ask the coach, "Wouldn't it be better to rep one stance 100% of the time, instead of 50% on one and 50% on the other?  Besides, you now have some guys in a 4-point stance on offense, and a 3-point stance on defense.  Then you have to spend additional time correcting that."  They'd retort, "If you knew anything about football, you'd know that offensive linemen are in a 3-point stance and defensive linemen are in a 4-point stance."  Then I'd reply, "Not on my team."

--Dave

I respectfully disagree on using different stances for different roles.

In a typical offense, your OL need balanced weight distribution so he can go in any direction if he needs to be pulling, reaching, firing straight ahead, or going back.  You sacrifice a little on forward momentum so you can reach athletic DEs or get in better position to wall them off when you pass.

On defense, you're not necessarily going to be going left, right, and should never, ever be stepping back (unless you have some kind of stunt or zone drop on).  Everything needs to go forward with explosiveness out of the blocks.

Therefore, even a 3 pt. defensive stance should be tweaked a little from what an OL should use: more weight on the hand (hand out about 4-6" in front of the nose), butt higher than the shoulders, up on the balls of the feet rather than flat footed, shade hand down for leverage on the first step collision, shade foot back for a more powerful first step, etc.

Navy's OL, since they're undersized and all focused on veer blocking, going forward, and just getting a crease for a second, teach their stances more like a DL's stance: with a lot of weight on the hands and the feet staggered a little, which is great for veer blocking... but that has hurt their pass pro in the past.  We'll see if adding more Run and Shoot techniques and coaching points helps fix this issue, but I'd be a little skeptical.

Of course, with youth kids who've never played before, it can be a challenge just teaching them a single stance and fixing that, so if you have to do it and can make it work, that's cool.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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August 14, 2019 10:20 am  

I respectfully disagree on using different stances for different roles.

In a typical offense, your OL need balanced weight distribution so he can go in any direction if he needs to be pulling, reaching, firing straight ahead, or going back.  You sacrifice a little on forward momentum so you can reach athletic DEs or get in better position to wall them off when you pass.

On defense, you're not necessarily going to be going left, right, and should never, ever be stepping back (unless you have some kind of stunt or zone drop on).  Everything needs to go forward with explosiveness out of the blocks.

Therefore, even a 3 pt. defensive stance should be tweaked a little from what an OL should use: more weight on the hand (hand out about 4-6" in front of the nose), butt higher than the shoulders, up on the balls of the feet rather than flat footed, shade hand down for leverage on the first step collision, shade foot back for a more powerful first step, etc.

Navy's OL, since they're undersized and all focused on veer blocking, going forward, and just getting a crease for a second, teach their stances more like a DL's stance: with a lot of weight on the hands and the feet staggered a little, which is great for veer blocking... but that has hurt their pass pro in the past.  We'll see if adding more Run and Shoot techniques and coaching points helps fix this issue, but I'd be a little skeptical.

Of course, with youth kids who've never played before, it can be a challenge just teaching them a single stance and fixing that, so if you have to do it and can make it work, that's cool.

First of all, I'm always smarter after reading your posts.  Secondly, I'm not inferring there's no place for 3-point stances and 4-point stances.  My #1 coaching maxim is "Know what you teach and know why you teach it."  We used 3-point stances for both sides because we had several of the same players playing both sides.  I didn't want to spend time teaching Billy the 3-point and the 4-point, when I could teach him one stance, all of the time.  That way, Billy was never "wrong."  Also, 4-point didn't work for us offensively, because we were a pulling team.  But 3-point for us defensively worked very well, because as we lifted the hand off the ground we could "get skinny," which aided us in our gap-shooting.

Part of my point, (yet I didn't really expound on it) was that coaches were teaching a 3-point simply because it was offense and a 4-point simply because it was defense, as if it were some sort of rule.  No other reason than that.  When I'd ask them the advantage of their approach, they'd just stare.  (Maybe they couldn't believe that I was asking what they thought was a ridiculous question. :D)

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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bigshel
(@bigshel)
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August 14, 2019 2:23 pm  

Article: https://navy.rivals.com/news/introducing-the-run-and-shootbr >

Very interesting article. Can anyone give some resources where I can find detailed info on the Go, Choice, and Shoot concepts?


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ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
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Posts: 9395
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blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
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August 14, 2019 5:47 pm  

Very interesting article. Can anyone give some resources where I can find detailed info on the Go, Choice, and Shoot concepts?

Go straight to the horse's mouth and get taught how to install these plays by Mouse Davis himself in the Mother of All Run-n-Shoot resources, the mythical "Truckee River Tapes" from the late 80s/early 90s:

Go: 

Choice

Hook

Cut-ups


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J. Potter (seabass)
(@seabass)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1249
August 15, 2019 10:52 am  

The run-n-shoot offense has always been intriguing to me...probably why I love the RPO game so much. If we could run a RPO on every play, I would never have to teach pass blocking again. It's just option football over greater space and time.

Unfortunately, sometimes we have to drop back and pass. In those cases my guys have to be able to pass block.


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J. Potter (seabass)
(@seabass)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1249
August 15, 2019 10:53 am  

I respectfully disagree on using different stances for different roles.

In a typical offense, your OL need balanced weight distribution so he can go in any direction if he needs to be pulling, reaching, firing straight ahead, or going back.  You sacrifice a little on forward momentum so you can reach athletic DEs or get in better position to wall them off when you pass.

On defense, you're not necessarily going to be going left, right, and should never, ever be stepping back (unless you have some kind of stunt or zone drop on).  Everything needs to go forward with explosiveness out of the blocks.

Therefore, even a 3 pt. defensive stance should be tweaked a little from what an OL should use: more weight on the hand (hand out about 4-6" in front of the nose), butt higher than the shoulders, up on the balls of the feet rather than flat footed, shade hand down for leverage on the first step collision, shade foot back for a more powerful first step, etc.

Navy's OL, since they're undersized and all focused on veer blocking, going forward, and just getting a crease for a second, teach their stances more like a DL's stance: with a lot of weight on the hands and the feet staggered a little, which is great for veer blocking... but that has hurt their pass pro in the past.  We'll see if adding more Run and Shoot techniques and coaching points helps fix this issue, but I'd be a little skeptical.

Of course, with youth kids who've never played before, it can be a challenge just teaching them a single stance and fixing that, so if you have to do it and can make it work, that's cool.

Exactly!


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