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League rules say Aug 1st is the start date, would you practice before?

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DL
 DL
(@daniel-lyons)
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Here is pop warner definition of "practice"

S1-DEFINITION:  To prevent possible bending of the rules and as a protection for children, practices are defined as a gathering of players or spirit participants, without minimum number, in the presence of at least one coach, where one or more of the following activities take place:
A.  chalk talk/skull session
B.  viewing of fundamentals film
C.  group conditioning
D.  individual skills sessions
E.  group skills sessions
F.  dummies and other inanimate contact
G.  play run through without pads
H.  play run through with equipment, but without contact
I.  Intra-squad scrimmages with full pads and equipment

However Camps are ok as long as it is not MANDATORY for kids to go to camps.

What are you going to do in a football camp then?  Sing Kum Bah Yah and make macaroni pictures?


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
(@Anonymous)
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That is one of the few good things about the League I am currently in. We can do whatever we want as long as we dont go full pads before Mid July.


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JB
 JB
(@_jb_)
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Joined: 12 years ago
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Go live in your communist bloc, Bob.

His D might actually be pretty good over there...the "Iron Curtain". 😉

"The big lesson in life, baby, is to never be scared of anyone or anything." Frank Sinatra


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CRM1241
(@crm1241)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 40
 

For Pop Warner I think it's an insurance thing. They cover starting August 1st until the end of the season. The rule gives them some protection, and actually protects the coaches as well if they abide by it. Most coaches probably don't consider the risk side when getting together for some off season work.


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davecisar
(@davecisar)
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The reason I ask is because a coach at the 8th grade level asked if I wanted some of my skill players to join around 6 of his skill players to work on their O plays and get timing down.  I told him that for one, league rules say we cannot practice till August 1st, two, what if I have a new kid or a returning player that bloomed this off-season and three, I would hate for some of my parents and players to get mad they were not invited if they find out, and they will.

Would you chance it?

I'm not sure that passes the test of it being a skills camp

We have done speed development
We have done position camps
The commish says everything is OK as long as you don't run plays- which we don't

Not worth it IMO

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.Winston Churchill


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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For Pop Warner I think it's an insurance thing.

Yes, and they will allow you to use their name in any of your off-season gatherings if you use their insurance.  I believe it's $200-$250 per event, or something like that.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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The commish says everything is OK as long as you don't run plays- which we don't

Nor did we, or did I want to.  Just because I had a group of 15 nine-year-olds at a camp doesn't mean they're all going to play for me, make weight, not play for another org, etc.  I install during Week 3 of practice, no ifs, ands or buts.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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Did Shamrocks say his team was in Pop Warner?

Whether they are or not, I still don't see the problem for his team when it comes to some of his players attending some other team's practice.


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davecisar
(@davecisar)
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The reason I ask is because a coach at the 8th grade level asked if I wanted some of my skill players to join around 6 of his skill players to work on their O plays and get timing down.  I told him that for one, league rules say we cannot practice till August 1st, two, what if I have a new kid or a returning player that bloomed this off-season and three, I would hate for some of my parents and players to get mad they were not invited if they find out, and they will.

Would you chance it?

The simplest answer is just ask the commissioner if what you have planned is a violation or not
That's what we do- and he appreciates the heads up
He told me on our Speed program- as long as it wasn't mandatory, open to others and no plays being practiced- he had no issues with it

Otherwise you are just hoping no unhappy parent or competitor turns you in- and then you get to find out if it was legal or not- stuff like that happens
Most guys don't want to have to go to that meeting and get raked over the coals if they did make a mistake

If the rule silly? Probably
Is it still the rule and penalties apply? Probably
That's why you ask IMO

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.Winston Churchill


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DL
 DL
(@daniel-lyons)
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Are the teams running their passing plays in 7 on 7 cheating? 

Our league has a firm practice start date, but also runs a 7 on 7 league. 

I don't like 7 on 7 because:

* Few teams have a passing game that is all 5 man routes and almost nobody drops 7 into coverage ever, yet those are two things you face on every down.

* 7 on 7 doesn't let you bump and run and it doesn't let you block.

* In 7 on 7 it easy to run routes up the middle where the line would be compressed our unpredictable.  Hard to do in a game.  I have even seen zero split teams do it regularly in 7 on 7.  Why I don't know. 

Other than mechanics and extra practice catching a ball, 7 on 7 is generally worthless to me. 

I don't do this, but I would rather run an in house passing scrimmage in Spring with my own rules that are more realistic.

Off top of my head.

Maybe 7 on 7 with flags or two hand touch and runs.  Blocking and jamming allowed above the waste.  Running is allowed except perhaps inside leads as those are too violent without pads. 

Rush after a 2 or 3 count from (outside tackle box)  or from LBs at depth so they can practice rushing under control and QB can practice scrambling. 

Maybe center can block LB on pass rush or runs after snap. 

   


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spidermac
(@spidermac)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2462
 

Our league has a hard you can't practice before "x" date...and they define what a practice is...

And while I may not agree with it, I follow it.

We are, however, allowed to participate in spring and summer flag leagues as a team, and we can practice and condition. Our league does not offer these programs though, so we have to go with other leagues to do spring or summer flag.

I honestly think there is a two-fold reason for these types of rules (maybe 3):
1. As some mentioned already, lazy coaches or coaches who coach other sports don't want to be left behind by coaches who only coach football.
2. Parents...in reality, I believe a lot of parents are too afraid to say "no" to their children's coaches. They think too much football (or soccer or baseball) is bad for their kids. So they pressure leagues into making these rules so they do not have to exercise their parental responsibilities to say "no" if they think it isn't right for their child or family.
3. Someone else mention insurance...could be something there.

At the end of the day, if it is a rule, I won't break it...if I don't agree with the rule, I will try and have it changed. There is a current rule regarding playing tackle in another league within 3 months of our league starting practice. Essentially, no spring or summer tackle football is allowed, I don't agree with the rule, I will follow the rule and will try and change the rule.

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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At the end of the day, if it is a rule, I won't break it...if I don't agree with the rule, I will try and have it changed. There is a current rule regarding playing tackle in another league within 3 months of our league starting practice. Essentially, no spring or summer tackle football is allowed, I don't agree with the rule, I will follow the rule and will try and change the rule.

C

Our League tried the same thing but was crushed. All of the "lawmakers" try to follow what we call the 5% Rule meaning never write a Rule that only effects 5% of the League. The problem that was happening with Spring and Summer Football was kids getting recruited to Fall teams by Spring / Summer Coaches. So rather than trying to dictate to everyone during an off season they just made a rule that kids that played Spring or Summer Football were ineligible recruits unless they have never played in the Fall before. 

Recruiting has serious boundaries in our League so I agree with the current Rule as written.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Shamrocks
(@shamrocks)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2354
Topic starter  

Did Shamrocks say his team was in Pop Warner?

Whether they are or not, I still don't see the problem for his team when it comes to some of his players attending some other team's practice.

No we are NOT Pop Warner


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fhubert
(@fhubert)
Copper
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 99
 

Our league is AYF and I would advise the original poster to NOT risk the activities as described in the original post.  Certainly not if you play AYF or PW.  There is a rather easy way to get training in, and many have alluded to it.  Similar to what Dave Cisar mentioned about their speed program, I believe most if not all leagues allow you to hold a camp or clinic.  Generally the rules are that it must not be mandatory and that it must be open to all.  Some say you can't run any plays, but our league doesn't go that far.

The activities (I'll withhold from calling them practices) mentioned by the OP sound to me like they are invitation-only, so they wouldn't pass the test of being open to all.

The league may not be able to do anything about it if it's just some of your players practicing with another team and none of your coaches or board members are involved.  But consider the following:

  • If you piss off the league, don't you think they will find some avenue to punish you for it?  Maybe they go out of their way to enforce other rules or just generally give you a hard time - neither is worth it.
  • You clearly know that the player agents will eventually find out and are likely to be upset their players were not invited.  That doesn't sound worth it either.

We have summer clinics every year - they are voluntary and open to all.  Whether it's speed/agility/strength or whatever, this is something I do recommend.

Fred


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coachdoug
(@coachdoug)
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Posts: 1077
 

For the past several years I have held Saturday morning workouts every Saturday from early January through the end of July.  I started when some of my players asked me to help them prepare for HS ball.  So, after a few sessions, I started inviting anybody that wants to attend.  Sometimes only one kid shows up, sometimes I get as many as 12-15.  It is not mandatory for anyone, and I still get mostly former players preparing for HS, but I often will have 3-5 players that will be on my team in the coming season.  I ran this by our President and got his blessing.  I post the info on my Facebook page - it's open to anyone.  We work on whatever makes sense for the players that show up each week - it always includes some speed & agility development, and often includes passing & receiving skills.  If we have linemen show up, we work on mostly footwork.  We generally don't have enough players to actually run plays, but we certainly work on pass combinations that we run.  With the linemen, we'll review our basic blocking schemes. If I know what HS an individual player is going to, and I know their scheme, I'll do my best to adjust what I do to that scheme.  For the most part, though, we're just working on scheme-independent skills.

As many of you know, I'm a pretty big believer in the rules, and I know them far better than most (our league is Pop Warner), and I'm pretty certain that I'm not breaking any rules here.  Now, I suppose someone could complain (although I'm not sure what about), but I'm confident that in the end, I would be found to have done nothing wrong.

Video clips: www.youtube.com/footballcoachdoug
Facebook Page: www.facebook.com/footballcoachdoug


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