Notifications

Pass Concepts to Pair with ZBS?  

  RSS

RPOZone
(@rpozone)
Copper
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 9
October 18, 2018 11:30 am  

Hello Coaches,

I'm looking to be exclusively Zone Blocking, out of 11 personnel (looking to sprinkle in some 12). The only runs I have in are: wide zone, tight zone, jet sweep, toss crack, pin and pull (Buck Sweep out of Gun), and the Zone Read stuff, with RPOs off of it.

What are the best route concepts to pair with zone blocking? And what are the best protections since more often than not, you're giving up size and anchor on the OL.

Thanks!

-RPOZone


Quote
ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
Diamond
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 9406
Coach
October 18, 2018 11:42 am  

If you look a little deeper youll find a mountjoy passing download. Those china concepts are very consistent.

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


ReplyQuote
ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
Diamond
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 9406
Coach
October 18, 2018 11:44 am  

If you look a little deeper youll find a mountjoy passing download. Those china concepts are very consistent.

Nevermind i found it looking for your pendry download

Good luck

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHdATiq7es5ZXhGMWc4TDJYU3M/view?usp=drivesdk

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


ReplyQuote
blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
Silver
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 847
October 18, 2018 12:05 pm  

Hello Coaches,

I'm looking to be exclusively Zone Blocking, out of 11 personnel (looking to sprinkle in some 12). The only runs I have in are: wide zone, tight zone, jet sweep, toss crack, pin and pull (Buck Sweep out of Gun), and the Zone Read stuff, with RPOs off of it.

What are the best route concepts to pair with zone blocking? And what are the best protections since more often than not, you're giving up size and anchor on the OL.

Thanks!

-RPOZone

For 1 back pass pro, you're mostly limited to either a 5 man BOB or a 6 man/check release 1/2 slide for dropback and a full reach-and-hinge with RB helping on the edge for sprint out.  If you need a 7th man, you have to keep the TE in to block, which is generally easier if you set the slide towards the TE side so he's just blocking playside D gap.  I can explain more if you like.

For RPOs... that depends on a lot of factors.  Do you just want to throw some presnap stuff to make sure the defense must respect the spread of your slots?  Do you want to actually run a zone read but block the DE and throw an RPO off an OLB?  This question really comes down to how you see the RPOs fitting into your offense.

Before you start designing RPOs, remember one thing about zone read: at its heart, it's simply reading the BSDE for a naked bootleg to keep that guy from crashing down and blowing up the RB.  That's all it really is.  This may help you come up with some RPOs of your own.  For a lot of spread offenses, the clever RPOs you see are really just a way force to compensate for having an immobile QB who isn't much of a runner by reading the LB for a short pass to a better athlete instead of counting on the QB to run the ball himself.  This is what Pitt did a lot with Nathan Peterman and what Kansas City was doing with Alex Smith last year.

Now, take that idea and combine it with something that Briles-era Baylor used to love to do: divide the field into 1/3s..  To one side, run a quick screen.  To the other, run a quick pass concept.  Then up the middle, you'll have the inside run: Baylor liked Iso, but here that would be Tight Zone.  The QB simply looks at the leverage of the defense.  If he has leverage on the screen, he throws that.  If you have the numbers in the box, you run.  If you have neither, he's going to take the snap and take a 1 step drop to throw the quick pass (Fade, Slant, Quick Out, or even 2 receiver routes like Fade/Out or Slant/Bubble work well here).

It helps to simplify teaching of the presnap RPOs if you just do built in rules for each side based on the number of WRs that are there.  If it's a 1 receiver side, he has to run the quick pass (fade, slant, hitch, or quick out all work).  If it's a 2 or 3 receiver side, you can run screens or quicks.  Since the TE is needed in the run blocking game, you can't really count on him much here.

Another nice thing you can do, especially if your QB is less than a stellar runner, is to block both DEs (zone count systems are good for this) and throw a post-snap RPO off an OLB.  Either Stick off the playside LB or a backside Slant or Snag route off the BSLB are good here.

Off the Outside Zone scheme, you can get into a 2X2 set and run a Bubble Screen backside for a presnap RPO with playside #1 on a "Choice" route where he runs a fade against a 2 high defense or a Post against a 1 high defense.  If the screen's there, just throw it now without hesitation.  Otherwise, you can watch the first 2 steps of the playside S for the playside RPO.  From Trips, make this a Post/Wheel with the same read and sometimes tell the guy to just look at the wheel if you see it's wide open.  You can also add another post-snap RPO to have the QB read the backside S for a backside post on Outside Zone, as well.

What I like off the Pin and Pull thing is to get into a Twins set one way with the TE and a WR (or even better, an H-Back) to the playside and then run a type of triple option.  Have the Twins run a bubble screen and tell the QB to just throw it if there's an overhang who can't tackle it or pick it off.  Then run your pin and pull with a read of the backside B gap defender--either a DL or a LB--for a QB keep up the middle.  It keeps the 3 way stretch intact that makes Buck Sweep so hard to defend.

If you have an athletic QB, I highly recommend a run play where the RB or a motioning slot receiver kicks out the BSDE for a Zone QB Counter or QB "Duo" play.

These are just some ideas.  Don't try to completely RPO your offense, though.  Make sure you have a call in there to turn off the RPOs in situations and make sure you still have some true pass plays in there for situations where you need them.  You don't want your QB slinging it around when you're trying to preserve a late 2 TD lead and you don't want him handing it off when you're trying to come from behind on 3rd and long.


ReplyQuote
RPOZone
(@rpozone)
Copper
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 9
October 18, 2018 12:14 pm  

Great stuff guys. I'm so excited to be here on this forum, hopefully I can provide some value down the road. My background is in personnel. I have a little NFL and CFL scouting experience, but I'm looking to get into coaching.


ReplyQuote
RPOZone
(@rpozone)
Copper
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 9
October 18, 2018 12:18 pm  

For RPOs... that depends on a lot of factors.  Do you just want to throw some presnap stuff to make sure the defense must respect the spread of your slots?  Do you want to actually run a zone read but block the DE and throw an RPO off an OLB?  This question really comes down to how you see the RPOs fitting into your offense.

Before you start designing RPOs, remember one thing about zone read: at its heart, it's simply reading the BSDE for a naked bootleg to keep that guy from crashing down and blowing up the RB.  That's all it really is.  This may help you come up with some RPOs of your own.  For a lot of spread offenses, the clever RPOs you see are really just a way force to compensate for having an immobile QB who isn't much of a runner by reading the LB for a short pass to a better athlete instead of counting on the QB to run the ball himself.  This is what Pitt did a lot with Nathan Peterman and what Kansas City was doing with Alex Smith last year.

Now, take that idea and combine it with something that Briles-era Baylor used to love to do: divide the field into 1/3s..  To one side, run a quick screen.  To the other, run a quick pass concept.  Then up the middle, you'll have the inside run: Baylor liked Iso, but here that would be Tight Zone.  The QB simply looks at the leverage of the defense.  If he has leverage on the screen, he throws that.  If you have the numbers in the box, you run.  If you have neither, he's going to take the snap and take a 1 step drop to throw the quick pass (Fade, Slant, Quick Out, or even 2 receiver routes like Fade/Out or Slant/Bubble work well here).

It helps to simplify teaching of the presnap RPOs if you just do built in rules for each side based on the number of WRs that are there.  If it's a 1 receiver side, he has to run the quick pass (fade, slant, hitch, or quick out all work).  If it's a 2 or 3 receiver side, you can run screens or quicks.  Since the TE is needed in the run blocking game, you can't really count on him much here.

Another nice thing you can do, especially if your QB is less than a stellar runner, is to block both DEs (zone count systems are good for this) and throw a post-snap RPO off an OLB.  Either Stick off the playside LB or a backside Slant or Snag route off the BSLB are good here.

Off the Outside Zone scheme, you can get into a 2X2 set and run a Bubble Screen backside for a presnap RPO with playside #1 on a "Choice" route where he runs a fade against a 2 high defense or a Post against a 1 high defense.  If the screen's there, just throw it now without hesitation.  Otherwise, you can watch the first 2 steps of the playside S for the playside RPO.  From Trips, make this a Post/Wheel with the same read and sometimes tell the guy to just look at the wheel if you see it's wide open.  You can also add another post-snap RPO to have the QB read the backside S for a backside post on Outside Zone, as well.

What I like off the Pin and Pull thing is to get into a Twins set one way with the TE and a WR (or even better, an H-Back) to the playside and then run a type of triple option.  Have the Twins run a bubble screen and tell the QB to just throw it if there's an overhang who can't tackle it or pick it off.  Then run your pin and pull with a read of the backside B gap defender--either a DL or a LB--for a QB keep up the middle.  It keeps the 3 way stretch intact that makes Buck Sweep so hard to defend.

If you have an athletic QB, I highly recommend a run play where the RB or a motioning slot receiver kicks out the BSDE for a Zone QB Counter or QB "Duo" play.

These are just some ideas.  Don't try to completely RPO your offense, though.  Make sure you have a call in there to turn off the RPOs in situations and make sure you still have some true pass plays in there for situations where you need them.  You don't want your QB slinging it around when you're trying to preserve a late 2 TD lead and you don't want him handing it off when you're trying to come from behind on 3rd and long.

Great post, very informative. I'm basically trying to take the Joe Moorehead idea of "If we can't block him, read him" and run with it. Without getting into clichés about making the defense defend the whole field, etc. What I find so appealing with the RPOs is the ability to make the defense wrong no matter what, and take advantage of overzealous 2nd and 3rd level defenders.


ReplyQuote
RPOZone
(@rpozone)
Copper
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 9
October 18, 2018 12:21 pm  

ZBS Coaches: do you guys run a lot of West Coast concepts out of drop-back? Or have you tinkered with others such as Air Raid, Edhart-Perkins, Air Coryell, etc. Thanks

PS: How many pass concepts overall do you have in your offense (counting actions, movement, drop-back)? How many is ideal?


ReplyQuote
Dusty Ol Fart
(@youth-coach)
Diamond
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 7617
Illinois
Other
Club Admin
October 18, 2018 12:42 pm  

2 things.

How competent is your QB?  (Under Pressure, Run, Pass) 
Can your Receivers, run good routes and catch when pressured by a Defense? 

My experience: I implemented similar RPO type materials this season with very mixed reviews due to the above.  Everything worked fairly well in practices but, when the Ugly jersey's lined up across from us, there was some obvious stage fright.  My QB was pretty accurate unless he perceived pressured then he bolted! Lots of Dropped passes, bad routes, etc.  A rash of Hurts and Injuries, added to the instability.  I changed it up couple times and settled on 2 back Pistol Depth formation with Slot, X, and Y.  As much as I tried to Implement a Stick Route, we just couldn't get consistent, route and depth (see aforementioned).  I will say we did improve as the season progressed, enough to allow the concept to be built upon.  The one thing I will say is that you most assuredly can out formation the defense when it clicks.  When we completed our Hot passes the running game opened up nicely.  When they snuck up on the LOS the, hot passes opened.  Very few of our passes were over 15 yards, I tried to keep it under 10 yds for percentage reasons.  But we were not afraid to toss a Fade or Corner to keep the safeties off.  (5th and 6th grade squad). 

Just some food for thought.       

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


ReplyQuote
PSLCOACHROB
(@pslcoachrob)
Kryptonite
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 12408
October 19, 2018 5:52 am  

Make sure you talk to MHcoach. Joe runs a 100% rpo offense using zone and power read. He presented at Atlanta Glazier a few years back and most of it was rpo stuff.


ReplyQuote
blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
Silver
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 847
October 19, 2018 10:06 am  

ZBS Coaches: do you guys run a lot of West Coast concepts out of drop-back? Or have you tinkered with others such as Air Raid, Edhart-Perkins, Air Coryell, etc. Thanks

PS: How many pass concepts overall do you have in your offense (counting actions, movement, drop-back)? How many is ideal?

The answer is that there is literally no ideal number.

Don't worry so much about labels such as "West Coast," "Air Raid," Erhard-Perkins, etc.  The truth is that football is football and all the pro-style schemes such as these use the same variations of horizontal stretches, vertical stretches, and combine those to get triangle stretches.  The Air Raid began as a simplified version of the West Coast offense, which in itself was a modified version of the Paul Brown passing game, and they are all descended from the old Sid Gillman playbook.  The biggest differences in them are in verbiage and how the routes are taught and communicated--very minor differences.  Smash is still Smash and everybody runs it, although a WCO team might call it a "17" route or whatever and a WCO might call it "Spider 2 Y-Corner Orange" or something along those lines.

In a perfect world, you can pare your offense down to only the essential things you need and go from there.  A good rule of thumb is that if you don't think you'll average using it at least 3 times a game, your kids just have a hard time completing it with any consistency, OR it doesn't fill an absolutely necessary role in your offense that nothing else does, then you don't need it.  Getting good at running the ball takes time and reps.  Getting good at throwing it also takes time, so you need an identity to guide you towards what's important.

A run heavy HS, they may only have 2-3 dropback concepts (often as simple as strongside flood, weakside flood, and maybe a smash or something), which they recycle on sprint outs, and then a PAP off their top 3 base runs which may or may not be one of the same ideas.  Add maybe 2-4 quick passes and a screen or two and they're done.

For a pass happy HS team who throws 50 times a game, they usually only run like 5-6 dropback and sprint out concepts and only 2 PAP because they're still making their living off quick game and screens.  They will probably have more quicks and screens (as well as a few "PAP" off their top quicks and screens), though, because that's like their "running game."


ReplyQuote
Dusty Ol Fart
(@youth-coach)
Diamond
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 7617
Illinois
Other
Club Admin
October 19, 2018 10:51 am  

I suggest that the  "Quick" screens, hitches, and slants are going to (should) be a part of your RPO.  Might even throw a few "Swing Passes" in as well.

😉

 

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


ReplyQuote
blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
Silver
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 847
October 19, 2018 11:08 am  

I suggest that the  "Quick" screens, hitches, and slants are going to (should) be a part of your RPO.  Might even throw a few "Swing Passes" in as well.

😉

Exactly.  As long as it doesn't affect the OL or the blocking scheme at the POA, you're good.

The old school HB Pass was probably the original RPO and that goes all the way back to the Single Wing.  Vince Lombardi would run a sweep back in the '60s where the HB was free to throw a streak to a playside WR running down the field if the secondary wasn't respecting him.  If it wasn't there, he'd just run the ball.  It was nice a way to account for the CB without expecting your WR to stalk him.


ReplyQuote
MHcoach
(@mhcoach)
Diamond
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 7637
Florida
October 20, 2018 7:27 am  

RPO's really fall into different categories. Each designed to do a different thing.

First there is RUN RUN PASS option. This is more of the initial Zone Read type plays where the Pass is the third option & must be behind the LOS. Usually a DL is the first read & it's predicated on having a running QB. The primary concepts used are Bubble. Smoke, & Slash. They take a longer time to develop so the pass needs to be on or behind the LOS.

Next, there is PASS PASS RUN option. Here the first read is a Quick route to a specific receiver in combination with a route concept, Stick, Smash, Slant Dig & so forth. Second & third level players are read, box count determining the run.

The type of QB really determines what will work best. If he can run then the first type, with one or two of the second type. If he's a thrower first then the second type work best.

This season we have a true Freshman QB. He can really throw the ball, but he runs like a turtle. We package every run with an RPO & use simple tags. He is completing over 63% of his passes & has thrown for over 1700 yds in 8 games. We are almost always reading second level players & using a variety of concepts.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


ReplyQuote
Share: